More from the CA. DFG

[F350]

This is a reply to my most recent question.
Hope it helps or keeps some of you out of trouble.

John,

It will never have the final answer! I use this scenario in training
new Wardens except I use deer, as the pig issue makes it actually a
little easier to answer.

The issues are two fold.

Number one: The hunter is required by law not to waste game FGC 4304;
however, only to the extent that a "Reasonable Effort" is made to
retrieve the game. Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don't think so. However it is morally wrong!

Number two: The landowner has the right to keep people off his
property and anyone who enters without permission is in violation of
trespass PC 602, or if the person has his gun, possibly FGC 2016 Hunter
Trespass.

A side issue is if the landowner tries to keep the game that died on
their property, that makes it a little cleaner as we have a law that
makes the animal belong to the person who actually wounded the animal
and is in "Hot Pursuit" of the animal. The law makes it a misdemeanor
for someone to take the animal which by law belongs to the person who
has wounded it and is in Hot Pursuit of the animal. However, the hunter
should call DFG to make the inquiry, not enter the private property and
get in a dispute with the landowner!

What it all boils down to is the hunter needs to be resonsible enough
to not hunt near areas where this type of situation can develop and to
do whatever possible to minimize the situation.

That is the best I can do to answer that one!

Michael P. Carion
Acting Assistant Chief
Training and Administrative Services Unit
mcarion@dfg.ca.gov
916-653-7135

[LeeChul]

I would still hop the fence to get the pig. Just my .

Like he said you have to make a reasonable effort to try and recover the game. I think its reasonable to jump the fence. Your judgement of reasonable may be different. But that is what makes us all unique individuals.

If the land owner had a problem and approached me, I'd say, "Oh, I'm sorry is this your property. Give me a moment and I'll be gone." If he had a problem with that I'd tell him he should build a fence that wouldn't allow animals to cross the property line.

[Marty]

I take issue with this statement:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don&#39;t think so. However it is morally wrong![/b]

IMO, duly authorized (government) officials should restrict their opinions to the legal interpretation of a law or statute. Unless such a statement is properly presented as an explicite expression of personal belief. (ie. "In my opinion, it is morally wrong to abandon game.")

I would agree that it is appropriate to &#39;hop a fence&#39; to retrieve downed game, when/where the act of obtaining &#39;right to tresspass&#39; from the landowner may jeopardize the harvest. Many people want to confuse the issue with poaching. As such, I do not consider such tresspass to be &#39;hostile&#39; toward the land owner. If the landowner did request that you vacate his property, you must oblige. However, the landowner better have an appropriate game tag, because my next stop may be to talk with the local warden.

[F350]

Marty,
While it may not be 100% correct to state his opinion in the manner he did,
Capt. Carion did take the time (Twice now) to try and help with some clarification for JHO&#39;ers.

He has also given next day responses to questions which could make the difference between a brother hunter getting into trouble or not. If I were going hunting this weekend, I&#39;d be glad I read this before hand.

The guy has been a true gentleman and I believe him to be a valuable resource to responsible hunters. Just my

"Nuff Said"

[prohunter]

I have to strongly disagree with LeeChul! I don&#39;t think you own much or any land in the country. I say that because of your response. Would you want me to hop your backyard fence and start looking around for something? Or would you want me to come ask your permission first. Remember the landowner is probably dealing with tresspassers&#39; all year round for various reasons. Some legit & some not! So the landowner not knowing who you are or what your doing could get you in trouble withhim or her. Like the warden said:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

What it all boils down to is the hunter needs to be resonsible enough
to not hunt near areas where this type of situation can develop and to
do whatever possible to minimize the situation.[/b]

[LeeChul]

So call him and tell him what you are doing. You have to remember this landowners attitude. A decent person would have been willing to meet the person at the property line and help him out. This isn&#39;t really an issue of ignoring someones property, its more about an antihunter&#39;s bad attitude and neglegence to the fact that this animal needed to be recovered.

As to the quote you made, how many times have you gone hunting and not killed until almost dark, how many times have you gone out and shot a deer crossing a river, it seems inevitable that if you are hunting a piece of property you will eventually come across this situation.

Cheers

[Schoettgen]

LeeChull,
If I caught you on my land and you told me I needed to build a better fence, I would tell you to learn how to make a cleaner shot and to get the hell off my land. Now, if you knocked on my door and asked permission I would be more than happy to lend a hand. You need to be carefull how you treat landowners, how You act reflects on all hunters.

[LeeChul]

Now if you watch the outdoor channel as much as I do you&#39;d see that 90% of the "well placed shots" from even big bore rifles end with the animal running between 30 and 60 yards plenty of distance to slide under a fence. On top of that, I&#39;ve heart shot deer with a 30-06 and watched them run nearly 75 yards. What about archery hunting?

Now we don&#39;t know the exact details but as he said, the landowner was contacted and he said no to crossing the land, are you suggesting its ok to let the animal just sit there? Clearly we don&#39;t see eye to eye Schoettgen, and that&#39;s fine. That&#39;s what this is all about right? I stand on my position, I&#39;d recover the animal.

[VHRAM]

as much as i would like to retrieve the pig I wouldnt want to loose my hunting rights,gear, etc......... I wouldnt do it without permisson.

[Schoettgen]

Your right, I don&#39;t watch the outdoor channel, but I have spent my fair share of time in the field. Most of the 50 or 60 deer I have shot with a rifle dropped withing 10 yards of where they were hit, I can say the same for hogs and I have killed twice as many of them. I have almost made two dozen achery kills and all have gone under 100 yards also, including bears. You need to make allowances before you shoot. If you think there is a resonable chance that an animal that you shoot will travel 100 yards and you are 10 yards off the fenceline, it is irresponsible to take that shot. Avoid the situation.

[LeeChul]

Congratulations on your 50-60 deer and twice as many pigs. It seems I&#39;ve upset you...oh well... I&#39;ll still sleep fine tonight. What you consider an irresponsible shot is also a legal one...

[Freedivr2]

Originally posted by Marty@Mar 23 2004, 10:58 AM
I take issue with this statement:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don&#39;t think so. However it is morally wrong!

IMO, duly authorized (government) officials should restrict their opinions to the legal interpretation of a law or statute. Unless such a statement is properly presented as an explicite expression of personal belief. (ie. "In my opinion, it is morally wrong to abandon game.")

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t believe that&#39;s what we really want of our law enforcement officials, that is, just to stick to the "letter of the law" at all times and in all situations......what a stinking world it would be if there were no gray areas or that they would have no opinion with regards to exercising good morals, ethics or standards of conduct that are outside the boundries of the law.

I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve heard of the Hunters (or Sportsmans&#39 code of ethics..... Is that bound by any laws? Nope. Do you personally follow those code of ethics when you hunt or do you just stick to what is in the fish and game code? My hope is that hunters treat the "unwritten laws" with the same respect as those which have a fish and game code number next to them.

Using the logic of black and white, it would be beyond my duties/responsibilities as a Hunter Safety Instructor to teach those code of ethics to students and explain the importance of being a good sportsman to them. The state includes these items, not laws, but moral codes, as part of the Hunter Education course for a good reason. Because gray areas ARE important, sometimes more so than the laws. Is it legal to shoot a buck in the butt? Yep. Is it an ethical shot? Nope.

Should law enforcement officials be given some latitude to operate in the gray area to encourage a positive, constructive outcome of a situation? You bet they should and I&#39;m glad they do vs. the alternative of black and white enforcement.

[fpscabs]

Why are we afraid to ask nicely for permission? Most landowners will respect that and if the answer is &#39;no&#39;, call the warden. They will usually help the hunter acting reasonable to collect their game.

In my opinion, just because a shot is legal, does not make it always the right thing to do. When I fish, I usually can take a legal limit of 5 trout home, I usually only take that which will be eaten, whether it is 5 or 0.

[Orso]

If I may cut in here... Sorry to take this a little off of the direction it is going but, I was interested in hearing about the "hot pursuit" law mentioned. I was under the impression the animal belonged to the person who actually killed it. Not to the individual who wounded it and is in hot pursuit of it. Thanks F350 for the thread...

As far as the direction this thread had been going in.... I too feel you must ask permission first before crossing the fence, and if the owner says NO, then you have to try and get assistance from either Sherriff or DFG. Legal or not you have to look at the entire situation prior to taking a shot, and if ethically it is wrong to take the shot, because the animal is 10yards to the propperty line, then you may not want to take the shot.

Good thread!!

[tony270]

If your house is 300 yards from the downed game, and you can&#39;t see or hear me, I&#39;m getting my game, plan and simple. As long as I&#39;m following game that I shot, and as long as I don&#39;t do any damage to your property, who will know. That&#39;s just what I would do.

[Schoettgen]

Originally posted by LeeChul@Mar 24 2004, 09:15 PM
What you consider an irresponsible shot is also a legal one...

Just because a shot is legal does not mean it needs to be taken. Shooting animals on the edge of a cliff, on or around the edge of a fast river, edge of private property, next to a HWY, etc... May be legal, but since we have the ethical obligation to recover what we kill, it is our responsibility as hunters to pass on shots where recovery may not be possible. Things can still go wrong, if they do stay legal and get help from F&G if you need to. If you regularly hunt boarder ground try contacting the landowners ahead of the season and ask if tresspassing would be ok if you ever needed to recover an animal. If they say no, adjust your shooting accordingly. Arguing with a landowner while you are tresspassing for any reason is just about the worst thing you could do. Don&#39;t even go there.

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

If you regularly hunt boarder ground try contacting the landowners ahead of the season and ask if tresspassing would be ok if you ever needed to recover an animal.[/b]

And there it is, right there...

Don&#39;t rely on anyone else&#39;s word about a landowner, it&#39;s still a real good idea (if not your responsibility) to touch base with the neighbors BEFORE the situation arises. You might be surprised how many people will tell you, "So-and-so never lets anyone on their land," without ever actually talking to Mr. So-and-so. When you knock on the door, not asking to hunt, but just asking about the possibility of recovering game if it crosses the line... well, the answer may be different from what you heard.

And sometimes, the rumors are true. Make your choices based on this information. If an incident still occurs, then it&#39;s in your best interest to approach it right. This may mean going back to the landowner and telling him what happened, apologize for the intrusion, and ask permission to recover your animal. If he still says no, contact DFG and see if they or the Sherriff&#39;s Dept will pitch for you.

All that said, I&#39;ll be as honest as anyone and say, if the animal falls within sight of the fence, and I&#39;m way "back of beyond", then I&#39;m probably gonna go grab my animal and get it back over the fence. But, at the same time, I won&#39;t go following a blood trail all over someone else&#39;s property without permission.

[dreaminhogs]

Im all for contacting the land owner to retrieve my game but honestly if my game is in sight I am going to set my gear aside and hop over to get my kill. F350 thanks for contacting the DFG and getting some clarification on this issue. I am all for public officials speaking the way this warden has and I hope his honesty isn&#39;t detered by some who frankly need to lighten up.

[F350]

Guys,
I can&#39;t express how happy I am that this thread has come to good use.
Debating the issues is also a large part of how we learn from each other. I believe that the minute one believes there&#39;s nothing left to learn, he is lost.

I am obviously a strong supporter of legal/ethical hunters and more importantly, very concerned about the impression the "Hunting community" makes on the rest of the world. I think it is moreso important to consider the outcome of the shot than actually taking one.

That being said, I&#39;m with Speckmisser on this one. I have crossed the fence line in the way-back part of someones land, got the game, and got the heck outta there. Had I been confronted by a land owner? I would have Humbley apollogized and immediately complied with their wishes. Again, I don&#39;t want to add to the bad taste in someones mouth over hunters, that would only hurt the rest of us.

On the same token, I agree that if contact can be made ahead of time with the adjacent land owners, you should do so out of simple respect. Personally, I&#39;d invite him/her to join my group for dinner. Heck! you may just make a new friend.

"Nuff said"

[superduty]

Ignorance is no excuse. The best way to debate a topic or someone at that matter, is to educate yourself. That&#39;s why I stay quit most of the time. Easier to pick out the ignorant people. Anyways I agree with F350 on there is nothing to lose only something to gain by discussing this topic. I know I have learned something from it by the research I did and reading others. Personnely I understand that hunters are picked on constantly by IGNORANT people but I too would be guilty of crossing and retrieving. A pig is the only thing I have ever shot in my life that didn&#39;t drop in his tracks and I can understand the debate. I tend to go big though and have less problems shooting all my big game strictly with a model 700 7MM Mag or my model 7 short action ultra mage in 300. You can agree or disagree thats your right but don&#39;t expect it to change my mind. I agree with you prohunter, I would try to exhaust all methods and means available to me at the time to do the write thing. But if left with no possible contact I would jump.

[prohunter]

I think if you ask first it will open alot of doors. Just be respectful. You have to realize that this landowner has been dealing with trespassing all year (thieves, trash dumpers, meth labs, poachers, etc...) that is why most of them have a bad attitude towards this. Most I know would grant you permission if you just asked FIRST.

[bayedsolid]

Who is going to see you if you have to cross the fence for a few yards to drag the animal back? If you don&#39;t, the animal would be wasted anyway. Most ranches are 1,000&#39;s of acres. The problem I see would be the time it takes to get to the ranch house to ask. There you are on foot, miles from the truck when you shoot something and it crosses the fence by 20 yards. What are you going to do as the sun is climbing higher in the sky? Walk for miles back to the truck and drive who knows how far around to try and find the ranch house and hope someone is home to give the okay? Now you drive back, park, and hike all the miles back into a now spoiled carcass that sits full of guts in the dark &#39;cause the sun went down an hour ago? Most of us hunt public land anyhow, so do you think any of these ranchers are going to give any kind of permission to be on their land? Not likely or they would have all kinds of people on their ranch "looking for lost game". They would just say why hunt the fenceline unless you&#39;re looking over the other side? 100 yards isn&#39;t that far to stay away and not have that problem, but if it happens, you either go get right then or you&#39;re wasting everybody&#39;s time. How long would it take for the warden to get there anyhow, even if you carried your cell phone? Those things never end up with reception in the hills anyway. The critter would spoil without being gutted by the time anybody showed up to try and figure anything out. It&#39;s a lose-lose situation. You either trespass or leave an animal to rot. Which ever one lets you sleep better at night.

[F350]

Bayedsolid,
Actually, Most ranchers a Pro-hunter and quite neighborly.
I think Prohunter&#39;s point is to ask permission from the neighbors before even beginning the hunt.

While hunting the Monterey County area, I noticed that every vehicle I passed on the road waved to me (the Drivers) and I found that if you don&#39;t wave back, you&#39;re suspicious to a lot of them. These folks all live with each other 24/7/365 and talk to each other constantly. "Hey martin...You got a guy in a big white Ford hunting your land? Nice trucks them Fords !"

The ranchers also understand that hunters are a key source of income for the ranchers and the community. Sure they compete with each other for business but their kids grew up together, got married and so on.

Most of&#39;em are really nice people with very basic values and ideals.
If you P_ss them off....We&#39;ve ALL P_ssed them off. Just Food for thought.
"Nuff Said"

Nice Trucks Them Fords !
That was for you Speckmisser.

[F350]

Here&#39;s some toilet reading.
Select penal code and type 602pc in the search box. It will shed a lot of light.
You can also search CA F&G codes. It&#39;s quite easy and may keep your butt outta trouble.

If I posted the whole thing Jesse would shoot me.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

[bayedsolid]

F-350---
I do see the point that was being made, but I was looking at it from the hunting public land point of view, which is where most guys are hunting. What if you asked ahead of time and the rancher says no? That was my point. You either go get it or it spoils. In a perfect world all of these good ideas would work fine, but that&#39;s not reality. I grew up in Monterey County and had more ranchers pissed off at me for driving onto their ranch to ask permission than I had say "no" nicely. I&#39;ve also had plenty give me the look of death just because I&#39;m driving down the road......and I waved. Sure, these guys are probably all very nice if you know them, but they certainly aren&#39;t so nice that they let anybody hunt that asks. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

These folks all live with each other 24/7/365 and talk to each other constantly. "Hey martin...You got a guy in a big white Ford hunting your land? Nice trucks them Fords ![/b]

That&#39;s why some guys have lots of ranches to hunt and most have none at all. If you prove yourself responsible to one, it&#39;s easier to get on another. When I look at it from the point of view of the rancher, the first thing that comes to my mind is "Why are you hunting my fenceline in the first place if you&#39;re not planning on crossing it or shooting over it?" If I had a few thousand acres, I&#39;d be hunting it plenty myself with my friends and family. I wouldn&#39;t give someone permission to cross because I know exactly what would happen. They&#39;d be all over the place and if caught, say they were after wounded game. I&#39;d also be pissed if I found an animal 20 yards from the fence because someone didn&#39;t go get it, but I wouldn&#39;t give them the okay ahead of time, if that makes any sense. If you get ranchers to say you can cross the fence to get an animal then great. But I don&#39;t think it&#39;s gonna happen too often.

[Orso]

I need to ammend my earlier post... I HAVE crossed in to private property a couple of times. The last time which I remember vividly was after hunting all day up by Clear Creek. My freinds property was only about 2clicks away, but the only way to get there was a really long hike and would have put me back at camp very late. So I made the decision to quickly scramble through the property next to hers and get to the road and hump it back to camp in about an hour. Saving a LOT of time and a LOT of energy. I dont want to be a hipacrit (spelling??), even if I am the only one who knows about it.

[F350]

Bayedsolid,
I get your point and agree it&#39;s valid. I can only speak of my own experiences.
Thanks for the reply.

Orso, You&#39;re an honest Man and I respect that.
There now...Don&#39;t you feel better? You fence jumper! (J/K)

This has been a great thread and has given me a great opportunity to learn from our brother hunters as well as get to know more of you.
Thanks Guys.

[huntducks]

Leechul, tony270, bayedsolid.

You 3 dudes aint going to like what I have to say but someone needs to tell you, guys like you are the reason it&#39;s hard to get permission to access PP your the ones a farmer or rancher always talk about, like this guy just jumped over my fence and walked right through or he walked right into MY PLACE and dragged his dead pig or deer out what ever, nothing would pi$$ me off more then to have some yahoo trespass across my property, you 3 represent what I call the typical Kalifornia hunter you don&#39;t give a damn about others just yourself, but damn you make it hard for us the legal hunter to fallow.

I&#39;ll bet all 3 of you put together aint killed a handfull of game and just looking at your replys your so damn game hungry it has blinded you to what is right and wrong and it&#39;s flat wrong to trespess on another man&#39;s property I don&#39;t care how you try to justify it.

Now go ahead a fire back and tell me how ethical you are when you have broken rule #1 DON&#39;T TRESPASS.

[raidernation]

F350
Most rancher&#39;s are Pro-hunter? How many Rancher&#39;s(Mrty Cty or Elsewhere) have actually given you permission to hunt? If you do get access why are you paying others to go hunting?


Hunter&#39;s are a key source of income? If that were the case, Most of us would not be searching for land to hunt. It would be plentiful. The Ranchers that do allow access don&#39;t make anything off us hunter&#39;s. If anything, the person managing their property will charge people to HELP(Very minimal) pay the ranchers insurance,taxes,etc.

You stated "I noticed people wave to you up in Monterey Cty". This is MOST country folk in general(no matter what part of the world you are in). On the other hand there are PLENTY up here that will maddog you for waving at them. They don&#39;t KNOW you.

I&#39;ve been trying to get access to property for years(15+) up here. Have succeeded a couple of times, But eventually something will change their mind. I know a ton of people very well that have land up here, But won&#39;t let people other than family hunt it.

As bayedsolid stated, I&#39;ve had ALOT of ranchers get very hostile at me for driving up to their house to ask permission to hunt or even FISH their property,No matter how you approach them. MOST (90%+) will not let a stranger who drives up to their ranchhouse and ask&#39;s permission to hunt.

huntducks
Before you fire away at people you need to know more about them, you would be surprised to see who/what/how many game some of the gentlemen you mentioned have taken or how ethical they are. Maybe their post came off wrong. How do you describe the typical California Hunter? I would be interested........

We are all here to agree and disagree, however you should not compare a FEW to what you call the TYPICAL KALIFORNIA HUNTER!!!

[prohunter]

I need to clear up what I said. Most would give you permission to retrieve your game if you asked first. It would take some time in getting to know someone before they let a stranger hunt their property.