If you missed this post in the CAMPFIRE forum, you gotta watch the video.
Campfire Topic - Lion Charging
That sure scared me... just watching the video. Man how does these guys do that. Thats must take some very big balls. but it must of been a hella good rush.
May the light shine upon you & the fog lie beneath your feet
I CANT POST THE RESPONCE I HAD .ILL JUST LEAVE IT AT WOW!!!!
Canned hunt..........fence visible in background..........miracle they didn't shoot one another in the crossfire near the end. Lion had no place to go as they followed him along waiting for a shot. Exciting none the less and proof even canned and semi controlled hunts can go bad quick.
I certainly cannot claim it is not a "canned hunt" however we hunt lots of properties in and around the Kruger park which are not fenced but the park is fenced when we are outside the park the fence is protecting the landowners from property damage by the park animals. There is still a fence but it's not keeping the game in a canned hunting area, it's keeping the game out of private property.
Not everyplace that has a fence automatically means canned hunting! A 7 foot fence is not a deterant to a lion, leopard, Kudu, eland, baboon, warthog, jackal, etc etc. Most will jump right over it and the others will go under. Consider how high a kitchen counter or dining room table is proportional to a domestic cat's size. They can jump that high with reletive ease. Do you really think a 7 or 8 foot fence is going to keep in( or out) a lion? Not likely, we have frequently hunted lions right out side the Kruger park with livestock damage permits. They trot along the fence and then with a effortless leap hit the top of the fence with their back feet and push right over the top. They would use the same technique if it were 10 or even 12 feet high.
Even the sections which are electrified are no deterant. I have watched countless times as a warthog running across a road starts to squeal and even let out a blood curdling scream 20 feet before he gets to the hot wire he is about to go under. He's squealing because he knows that fence is gonna hurt when he goes under. He squeezes under the fence getting zapped by the hot wire and continues to squeal for another 20 yards until he is over the "shock" then he just trots off as if nothing happened.
Sure hurts like heck but they learn it's temporary and accept the shock and go right through these type of fences. During some times of the year the sandy soil is so dry that the conductivity of the fence is almost zero to dry ground. We have run a seperate ground wire next to the hot wire so a solid ground is hit at the same time. It helps but it's not a guarantee of successful containment.
This is not the same video that has been discussed on AR and HA with the PH's name included as well as the background of the "hunt" and hunter who made this "trophy" hunt? I think when you read the facts you'll agree this was not as it appeared unless hunting is a lot different in Africa than other parts of the world.
As I said in my post I'm not saying 100% that this is not a "put and take" or "canned" hunt. It's likely that with the facts I would agree with you. Can you tell me where I could read the "facts" on this hunting video? Then I can read up and see for myself.
It was debated and infused with various info on HA and AR but the AR link is better for info and you probably know a lot of the posters that post there. Read it and tell me what you think after hearing a few more ins and outs...........
Don't think this video went over too well with hunters on either board and tends to give African hunting a bad name as well. Notice quite a few posters were on the lions side! Looks more like a circus than a big game hunt and with people diving for cover while shooting towards each other, it came out a lot better than it might have.
Seems like I've seen you posting on both above forums........surprised you haven't already seen and read these posts several weeks ago.
I know those sites well as Saeed has been hunting with me in RSA since before he had a website! I also know that Jacka$$ at HA and would not waste a minute of my time there with his "big brother" editing practices and his silly legal threats to posters there including me and Saeed and plenty of others!
What I was hoping for was actual "facts" not a bunch of uninformed posters opinions. I have read enough of that drivel to make me puke on topics like this where everyone has the ethics and facts yet may never have even hunted in Africa to understand the reason for things that happen there. I have cut and pasted a reply to another post in regards to this video. It was taken from this site, although it's several weeks old now. I'm not suggesting that what is on that video is all "sport hunting" and ethically honourable. I just want to point out the rest of the South African hunting story many folks are unaware of. Here it is:
I was asked to reply to this by two seperate Emails over the last couple of days. I suppose as a PH in Africa those folks requesting this assume I have all the answers. Sorry I don't know how to convince people of all that I believe or I would be a politician!
Lets look at a few things we can determine as facts and then start to add the "guess work" First the PH in the video is speaking in Afrikaans which makes this very likely a hunt in South Africa.
There is a fence in the video but Kruger park is completely fenced and hunting is allowed in the park for animals during various times and for various species. Hunting around Kruger park or any park where the lions come and go as they please is also common when a land owner files for a permit and sells it to an outfitter. I spent a month in Kruger park last year driving 1800km and only made it 1/2 way down from the north end. It's an enormous park which you could not see all of in a lifetime of hunting or touring. It is/was/has been entirely fenced or contained over the last 20 years or more. There are breaches in the fence as the elephants will burst through the fence regular to get to agricultural land. Lions and other agile animals just go up and over the fence as if it's not there. I have seen Kudu jump a 7 foot fence from a stand still to get to water and I have also see a 2000 pound Eland jump that same 7 foot fence on a dead run. He did break a leg when he landed and we had to shoot him after that. Eland is way to good to eat to let them waste away for Hyena!
Powerline poles criss cross much of the African bush today Many years ago when camps were placed in remote areas the phone and electricity were welcomed. During the off season the entire black staff was out of work. Plenty of safari companies had them work through the off seasons running power poles to the outpost areas where camps were located. This is not an uncommon sight today in Southern Africa. The largest coal fired powerplant in the world is in the remote Northern Province of South Africa. This is a very coal rich area. This power plant sells power to Zimbabwe, Botswana, all of South Africa and Mozambique. With the spider web of routed high powerlines through the bush getting power to remote areas is much easier now.
Regarding the hunting of lions, They are a harvestable resource which require permits and strict rules. The comments that they should only be shot if man eaters is a bit off. It's not as if anyone at any time can shoot one when they feel like it. The proper permits are required and they are given based on availability just as permits would be issued for Big horn sheep, Polar bear, grizzy bear, mtn lion, or any other limited quantity animal in North America. The Lion Hunts for males I have access to will go for 17,000 dollars and the females about 9,000. That income from a few lions a year will pay for the management of hundreds or thousands of other animals. It will protect them from poaching, and it will pay for the veternary assements of the populations as a whole. Managing and running a 100,000 acres of hunting consession is not cheap. Taking a few surplus lions per year helps us keep the lights on.
SCI years ago told the country of Namiba that they could protect the Cheetha by opening a hunting season. The media and the goverment laughed. However they were willing to fund a research project which got their attention. They allowed hunting in an area where the primary land use was sheep grazing. In this area it was well known that sheep ranchers would shoot cheetha on site to protect the sheep. However they were all told that if they had a cheetha problem they could apply for a permit and sell that permit to a hunting outfitter for whatever price they wanted. Now remember these farmers make about 15,000 USD per year. They were selling these permits for 10,000 USD to outfitters who again re-sell to hunters for 12,000-15,000USD.
Guess what, the farmers could make more on two cheetha permits a year then they would with the sheep! Now they are hoping for cheetha predation! Needless to say they would never consider shooting one now because they have such a great value. Well you can imagine what that has done for the cheetha population!
The same can be said for elephants in Africa. Only Kenya does not allow hunting. They are also the country with the greatest retduction in herd size. RSA, BOT, ZIM, and several other countries that allow hunting have so many elephants they are pushing to remove the ban on Ivory trade. When an animal has value it's treated very well and protected for it's value. If an animal is just 100% protected it has no value when outside the protected area it would normaly live.
I doubt there is a country anyplace on earth that has the game management quality of Southern Africa. How many places in the world see thousands of hunters each shooting 5-10-15 animals per person every year for the last 25 years and they still are not running out? RSA is the only country in Africa which you can still hunt all the big five! Why is that? Becasue managment is exceptional and the game and hunting heritage is so highly respected.
Every single day from May first through July first there are 50 hunters or more in line at the gun permit office at the Joburg airport. Imagine where in North America that many hunters could decend and harvest an endless supply of trophies every season. Maybe it's time we take a lesson from them rather then second guess, question, or critcize them!
I take 25 hunters a year on my consession alone. Each hunter takes an average of 7 animals. Thats 160-200 big game animals a year, every year from my consession alone. Each hunter pays 4500.00 bucks for their ten day hunt which includes 5 of the animals. I also allow them to shoot female impala and Kudu for 100 bucks and 250 bucks each, ALL THEY WANT! This meat goes to the hospital in Josine for the staff, patients, and doctors. Now imagine when you drive at 70MPH for 4 hours and all you see is open bush with one hunting operation after another. The majority of the Northern Province is game managed for big game hunting. It's got more indiginous big game species then anyplace on earth! This is an area about 1/4 to 1/3 the size of Texas and has this massive hunting pressure without running out of game, every year!
Hope this helps with a better understanding of hunting in Southern Africa.
Your post is nice and informative from your perspective however...............telling about the hunter specifically named on the end of the video would have been more relevent to this thread. I believe this video will do more harm to your SA hunting and influence more potential hunters from the states than your post explaining why "canned" hunts are necessary to support hunting concessions in Africa. Not my cup of tea for sure and about 50 other viewers seemed to agree almost to the man. Saeed calling it canned plain and simple says it all..........not wrong just not what a lot of hunters would want to do. We have canned hunts right here in the old USA and I like many others have no interest in them. Those with the money can shoot their "trophy" and try to convince themselves it was fair chase if they want.......the rest of us know better.
Good Hunting one of your countryman a Walter Enslin is up here for a while drumming up business for a SA Plains game hunt in a week or so. Still too many types of game yet to hunt here for it to interest me though. Remember you, Saeed, and I are also "uninformed" posters to various degrees on every thread also
hunt well woods
Don't misunderstand my feelings on this idea as if I agree with it. I would not hunt that way myself!!
There are folks who wish to hunt this way or may be physically limited to various degrees and want to hunt but cannot hike climb or even walk very well. Many are perfectly capable to do those things but have the money to pay for what they want and make it quite easy.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that without the wealthy folks spending money on hunting, most of the hunting us "average" guys do would be lost. I am a Member of the NRA and SCI. I try to contribute to the cause for the security of our future hunting and gun rights. My donations and subscriptions to these orginasations help to pay the salary of the lobbiests in Wa DC to protect our rights and fight against the anti hunting groups.
The wealthy people I have seen at an SCI gathering and auction will write a check for 20,000 dollars to them for a donation or an auctioned piece of art or a donated hunt. There may be 20 people that do this at each meeting! In my whole life I would not be able to generate a tiny bit of the money to donate that some of these guys will donate in a heartbeat. They are the people who spend the money to save hunting for the rural deer hunter in Alabama or the coastal bear hunter in SE Alaska. It's those huge amounts of money that pay the lobbiests to protect our best interest.
I often hear a lot of "class envy" regarding the rich and how they hunt. To my way of thinking they can shoot whatever they like with what ever methods the choose so long as they have an interest and love the hunting they do they will continue to fund the protection of my rights to hunt also. I know my 100 bucks a year is not gonna fund squat in Washington DC, nor will several thousand others at my level. We need the big guys with the big check books to help fight anti hunters or we will all lose.
I agree that a "canned" lion hunt is not for me. But it will provide much needed income to run a business that provides hunting for other game and for "real" hunters to persue. That boost to the economy for an animal that would likely die of old age and generate zero dollars is worth much more if a fella can shoot it and tell what ever story he wants to his rich SCI buddies. If that Lion was canned, and it may well have been. The hunter probably paid 25,000 for it. Imagine that amount of income to a business that runs on a typical 10% margin!
While it's not for you, or me to want to hunt that way lets be grateful that there are people that are willing to do it and support the things we love most in life!
We will have different perspectives on this one as we probably have different conceptions of several key issues. Enjoyed talking to you though, and its nice to debate with someone on line and not have it turn ugly or emotional. As I said it was quite exciting when things started happening in the video.
Good Hunting woods
The PH in the clip are from Central South Africa. He used to work for the Army, untill he started to hunt professionally. As far as I could determine, that hunt took place in the Kimberley area. It was definately canned, and they tried to edit the fencepoles out of the video. Although canned lions are more likely to charge than wild ones, they normaslly do not kill, as they have never been taught to kill for themselfs, and that is what saved one or more of the "hunters" in the video. At the time of the making of this deplorable video, legislation on the management of captive bred lions where starting to be introduced. Legislation are still not totally up and running. ( the video was propably shot in 2002). Unfortunately, practices like this give our hunting industry a bad name. For a better picture of SA hunting industry, see JJhack's comments on their concession.