NEWSFLASH for avid airgunners

**cak291** · 10-07-2003, 06:36 PM

Seriously, I have been a student of killing for 55 years.
As a youngster we were paid 5 cents a gopher tail. From that money we bought all of our ammunition and dream guns. $1 rabbit in wintertime. Weasels and mink, I don't remember prices paid. A bunch. Fox was up to $3.
From there I went on to shoot high expert in the Marine Corps and went thru numerous CIA and military shooting schools. KILLPOWER........

All this knowledge has everything to do with the lowly airgun.
We'll get to that in time here.
Few years ago for some unknown reason I got into Black Powder Muskets.
Oh boy, one shot, 5-minutes to reload and who knows where the next projectile will go. How in da-Hell did they ever do it???
Don't laugh too hard, I've had my share of perfectly loaded balls - - - did it perfect now - - - plow into the ground mere yards in front of me.
PLOW, you read it right, lot of horsepower in them old muskets.
I noticed first deer I shot with one. View any of the old movies or Black Powder deals and you see the same. BOOM, lotsa smoke and noise. Deer still standing.

Let's leap to Airguns.
My baby is a Beeman Kodiak 25 caliber. Projectile doesn't break the sound barrier.
Question: How many of you have been shot at?
Well I've been shot at so many times I can't count the number in Vietnam.
Some were so close as the shooter zero'd in. Whew!!!
Whoaaaaaaaaa do I know firsthand what that critter sences and feels when the crack of a bullet comes by. It instantly kicks in all the adrenlin gears and a few unknown other high energy glands to get legs spinning and to hell otta there.
I wasn't always Mr. Lucky, I have been shot and bigtime.
Awe, I also know what the critter feels when shot.

With a high speed bullet, like someone smacked ya quick with a fist.
All adrenlin and assorted energy glands kicked on immediatley. There was hell to pay by somebody, the shooter.

Okay, now I shot that deer and after the smoke cleared deer is just standing there.
Sit tight, he has no idea what the hell happened. Tree limb fall on him????
His buddy kick him - - - WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT
By the time he sences, "Not having a good day", too late, he flops over dead.

Good Gawd, I've shot deer that were laying down with a high speed crisp flat trajectory bullet right thru their heart. Exploded their heart.
Deer got up and ran fullbore over a hundred yards on adrenlin alone.
I've shot pig in half practically with an automatic (when they were legal)
and the pig attacked the horse I was on tearing his legs up before crapping over and dying. Had to whack the horse too, he was alll done.

I shoot pig all the time with my 25 cal Beeman.
Shoot and sit tight. You got him good, he just doesn't know it yet.
Few seconds he will go down and does.

Now I read you guys, 'ALL' want 1000 (plus plus) feet per second projectile.
What for? Break the sound barrier, crack of the bullet, hit one critter and the rest take flight. One shot, all done, gotta move to a new location.

I'll sit there, 4 - 5 cottontail in a 50 ft. circle, chances are I will get them all.
Two coyote standing maybe 10 yds apart, I shoot one, it drops, the 2nd isn't all alarmed, he never really heard anything and has no idea what is going on.
WHACK, I get him too. I've done it.

So why do you want something that you can't get Game with?
Oh but seeeeeeeee, my projectile goes 1400 fps, I am topdog.

Aside from all my shooting knowledge from govt. know-it-alls and my entire past as an avid hunter, one day a few years ago ground squirrels were in my backyard.
I live in town, NO SHOOTING..........
I have an old crossman BB/177 pellet pistol. The pumpup kind.
I sat in the bedroom with the window ajar, POP, POP, POP shooting all these gophers. I honestly thought that I was missing, not hitting them.
I walked out later checking, my Gawd, 8 - 10 gophers were lying dead.
WOW, I was hitting, they crawled behind something and died.
Gophers not making it back down a hole, unheard of to me really.

That alone opened up my eyes to different kinds of kill power.
I really luv gopher shooting. We do it once/twice a week year round.
We usually get up to 200 an outing in 4 - 5 hours.
I shoot, gopher just sits there, wierd look on its face, flops over dead.
We laugh over that. Doc my hunting partner, I'll shoot one, sit watching, "GEEz, I swear I hit him, musta missed?" Flops over dead and Doc laughs.
I do the same to Doc. I tell him, I know the shot was good..

I use different projectiles in the Kodiak for different game.
I call in Crows, 8 - 10 Crows in a tree, I'll get a bunch before they finally exit.

Now if you shoot with the 1000 fps gun of yours, or that 1250 fps, you gonna get one shot off and "ALL" will fly away.

The real question, how many foot pounds of power do you have out 75 yards?
Or reach out there for that 100+ yard shot. No problem with my slow 25 caliber.
Check distance with the Range Finder, few clicks on the scope and shoot.
My gun is setup, minimum 50 yards - - - keep all shots in a quarter size diameter.
100 yards, silver dollar group size.

Faster is not always better. Knowing your gun is everything.
cak

**MapMan** · 10-07-2003, 07:55 PM

I don't know what to say...............?

**Csbishop** · 10-07-2003, 07:59 PM

[quote]I shoot pig all the time with my 25 cal Beeman.

Pigs with a air rifle
I have a hard time seeing a pellet getting through the hide let alone the cartilage
on the side of a hog.
You must be shooting them in the eye right.
Are you talking about guinea pigs.

**cak291** · 10-07-2003, 09:42 PM

Thanks Mapman

My entire POST, all I wanted to do was to encourage people to think.
Look at the other side of the picture.

As in yesteryears, I too supported all these gun magazines.
Always had to have the latest gun.
Some author writes an article, WOW he has this and did this.
Pictures of Game laid out. Bullet X, gun x is the only way to go.

BUY BUY BUY is the name of the game.

The intended point of the POST was not to seek speed or a fast
projectile. Dr. Beeman researched foot power pounds out per critter pretty well.
I think his works are still Posted with Beeman Web Site.
177 caliber with 1400 fps muzzle velocity probably won't have 3 foot pounds of power out 50 yards. Good for whacking a small housemouse or sparrow only.
50 yards out it may be doing 350 fps???????

I always am down on putting the chronograph just in front of the barrel.
I know what the manufacturer says it is doing in muzzle velocity.
Put that chronograph out there 50 yards and let me shoot thru it..
I want to know my bullet speed in fps out there. I can calculate grain weight and speed and figure out foot pounds of power.

Other issues,
How does any wind affect that projectile?
Hitting a mouse at 50 yards may be out of the question????

The shooter has to know all his/her gun limitations and stay within those parameters. Shooting a mouse or a sparrow and just wounding it is as distasteful as clipping a deer or just wounding any big game animal.
We don't go out to hopefully just wound something.

With an airgun, different projectiles are really very different acting once shot.
I always setout a target before I begin hunting on any given day.
Drive to where I intend to hunt, set target out 150 ft away and see what happens.
Humidity, air temperature, slight puffs of wind 150 feet out, gun shooting different,
I'm shooting different, projectile moves all over the target until I get things settled down. If I can't get everything working right, I go home.
Done that a few times.
When I shoot I want that projectile +/- 1 inch group.
That's 3 shots in a row all +/- 1 inch group.
Gets 3+ inches, call it a day and go home.

The Game I seek I cannot be off up to 3 inches.
Typical gopher shot 75 yards out is a 1 inch target to hit.
So the gun and the shooter has to be on target or go home.

WE say the scope moved, scope rings goofed up.
Never our fault, of course not.
Put the gun away, try it a few days later.
Surprise, must have been the shooter. Everything works perfect.

I had a more expensive Beeman 25 caliber rifle, 9 shot repeater too.
Projectile broke the sound barrier in speed. I could roll out 9 shots like it was a semi-automatic. Nice gun, I got rid of it.
One shot, all the noise, all done hunting in that area for awhile.

With my Kodiak I can be making small talk with some ranch lady, be aiming out away from her, Whack a few gophers, cottontail or two in her garden and she really has no idea I am shooting. I've done that before.
Walk out, pickup a dead rabbit out of her garden, I could do no wrong on her property after that.
cak

**cak291** · 10-07-2003, 10:14 PM

Cary Bishop

We always shot pig, bulls whatever on the farm with a 22 singleshot short,
Rimington rfle. I've shot pig and deer with a 22 short over a hundred yards
away. They always fell dead.

Where you coming from in mockery, my 25 caliber airgun has more umph than any 22 short round. \

You sound like a rimfire person butting your nose into an area that you have no idea what you are talking about. I've reached out 500 yards killing coyote with the 60 caliber airgun. 12 guage air shotgun has more power in my book than any 12 guage ever made. I knock turkey down at distances with it that no rimfire shotgun dares to try. Full choke, that pattern is so tight out there.

What is the most accurate gun ever made?
An airgun. No rimfire can come close in accuracy to an airgun.
Real airgun shooters keep their groups the size of a dime.
I've shot every rimfire gun made, none, not even with custom ammo
can match a typical off the shelf airgun's accuracy.

I notice the US Navy is going to airguns for the big guns on the ships.
Oh my Gawd, 500 Lbs. projectile being hurtled 20+ miles by AIR.
Impossible you'd declare.

Have a good one
cak

**Greenleaf** · 10-07-2003, 10:55 PM

That's nothin'!

I hunt Alaska grizzly with a soda straw and some spitwads!

<------------

**cak291** · 10-07-2003, 11:53 PM

Cary Bishop

I hope I wasn't too hard on you. I didn't mean to come down on you.

I do get so ticked off though.
Rimfire people think an airgun is a Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun to find under a Christmas tree by children. Go crack a couple windows, have fun.

Reach in your wallet, cough up a few thousand dollars, get a serious Air Rifle.
Lot of my friends have $5000 dollar air rifles with $4000 dollar scopes on.
My $800 - $900 dollar Beeman Kodiak with $500 dollar scope and so on is a cheapy compared to what all is out there to buy.

ALL militarys have airguns, CIA, I imagine FBI too.
For special assignments, extreme accuracy, almost noiseless.
They even found a bunch of airguns the Iraqi Army had and used.

Potent weapons, no Daisy Red Ryder BB Gun to them..

During the Lewis & Clark Expidition, the airgun was the prefered weapon of choice to get Game with to keep them in meat. It knocked over a bunch of elk.
At the end each member was eating 9 Lbs. of elk meat a day and still starving to death. No fat and calories in elk meat.

Airguns were used centuries before gunpowder was invented and guns.
No money to be made in air, air is free - - - gunpowder and gun industry fought hard burying all airgun information. All further advancement and research was stopped because the gunpowder industry was making millions selling guns and gunpowder.

Sorry if I fired on you. Rimfire people come into air rifle zones and waltz around like they know it all. I'll match my 25 caliber air rifle against any off the shelf 25 caliber gunpowder rifle. Use storebought ammo just as I do.
I will outshoot that gun 5 to 1.

No one is saying the air rifle is superior to a rimfire rifle.
Long shots, 700 - 1000 yards no airgun can do that.
I specialized in long range shooting in the Marine Corps.
1200 - 1500 yard shot, oh yeah, make my day. One shot, one kill.

American riflemen were nortorious for head shots during the Revolutionary War of 1812 with Britton. 1200 yard shots, open sights, Black Powder Muskets.

Old timers (Mountain Men) with 50 caliber Hawkins Rifles would shoot 10 inch targets at 500 yards. Open sights, naked eye. They commonly shot any big game out to 500 yards.

How's your shooting........
cak

**MarinePMI** · 10-08-2003, 08:48 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Seriously, I have been a student of killing for 55 years.[/b]

Uhhh...okay....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

From there I went on to shoot high expert in the Marine Corps and went thru numerous CIA and military shooting schools. KILLPOWER........[/b]

Yeah, sure thing...that's believable (tongue planted firmly in cheek)...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Question: How many of you have been shot at?[/b]

More than you think, most people don't consider it something to brag about. More like something to be quietly thankful to have lived through...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Now I read you guys, 'ALL' want 1000 (plus plus) feet per second projectile.
What for? Break the sound barrier, crack of the bullet, hit one critter and the rest take flight. One shot, all done, gotta move to a new location.[/b]

The limit is one a day right? You only need one shot...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I shoot pig all the time with my 25 cal Beeman.[/b]

Good for you! Not only are you incredibly full of $%&, you're breaking the law...

cak,

Spare us the "Major Payne" rendition of what a "deadly" guy you are. Quit wasting bandwidth, get off the crack pipe, and come down to planet earth...

What were you? A REMF? Some cook or supply clerk who's read too many Mack Bolan books or something? PAH-LEEZZEEE!

**machine** · 10-08-2003, 08:59 AM

cak291,

I've seen people take a small pig with an air gun.
And coyotes too.
Yes, they are VERY accurate.

I shoot a Webbly Patriot .22 it's been a great rifle

This site is mainly for people that love to hunt, and shoot.
Air guns are just an extra bonus here. (just my oppinion)

You definitely know your air guns. (nice too see)
So I'm sure you've been to the StraightShooters forum???
Give it a try, if you haven't.

I think there very into, just air guns...

**Hogskin** · 10-08-2003, 09:18 AM

Great post, MarinePMI.

Nothing I can add.

**grtwythunter** · 10-08-2003, 01:25 PM

cak291

Your stories are so full of

it's pathetic. Grow up if you want to hang around here.

Scott

**Boar Tracks CA** · 10-08-2003, 01:50 PM

Thank you MarinePMI........... you hit the target on the first shot.
semper fi

**birdygal** · 10-08-2003, 01:51 PM

NOOO!!!!

Don't tell him to stop!!! These are absolutely priceless!!!

Where else can you get this kind of information? Especially from someone
so obviously experienced, informed, and trained?

Cak, we should be encouraging you instead of doubting you. I for one look forward to reading each and every one of your posts. Welcome to the forum!

I'd really like to hear more of your stuff. I'd like to hear about some of your work in the CIA, for example. And I especially would like to hear about the classified stuff, like the new airguns the Navy will be using to launch shell off ships.

That should be really interesting!

Guys, I don't think he means it the way you're taking it.

Just like he'll probably not take this the way I mean it....he's just misunderstood.

Right Cak?

**BDB** · 10-08-2003, 01:59 PM

I would have to agree with birdygal, it sure makes my day at work go a little faster

**birdygal** · 10-08-2003, 02:25 PM

Cak,
Help me out please. You've really got me to thinking about your post and I'm very curious about this.

When you hunt deer and pigs with the .25 cal airgun:

1) Is this a "silenced" or suppressed weapon?
2) Or is this the subsonic speed you're referring to?
3) What is the size (weight) of the projectile?
4) What is the shape?

You mentioned chronographing the speed of the projectile downrange.
What speed are you getting with that size projectile?

Sorry, but my experience with airguns is very limited, and I'm having a hard time understanding how you could deliver a deadly blow with a small "pellet".

Thanks.

BTW, could you post a picture of you and your friends in Mountain Man garb? I think that would be a real turn on. Sounds like so much fun! Can girls go? Or is it just a guy thing?

**Maverick** · 10-08-2003, 02:28 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

notice the US Navy is going to airguns for the big guns on the ships.
Oh my Gawd, 500 Lbs. projectile being hurtled 20+ miles by AIR.
Impossible you'd declare.[/b]

I for one would love to see the forarms on the guy pumping up thig airgun!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I specialized in long range shooting in the Marine Corps.
1200 - 1500 yard shot, oh yeah, make my day. One shot, one kill.[/b]

Sergeant Carlos Hathcock welcome to Jesses. I'm sure you and you 93 comfirmed kills will fit in just fine.

**JDC** · 10-08-2003, 02:30 PM

I was sitting here quite bewildered.... I couldn't figure out how I could hit something with a .20 cal pellet traveling just under 1000 fps, that was smaller than a pig, lighter skinned than a coyote, bigger than a gopher, and plentiful around the area.. anyway, perfect shots, near silence, not one of them ever stood there wondering what just happened.. they were like any other critter with a demolished heart or brain.. they ran like hell, be it ever so short, they still ran.. pigeons still flap wings, I have never witnessed something just sit still after being hit with anything..

I must need some special training, or maybe not be so gullable.....

**JDC** · 10-08-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by birdygal@Oct 8 2003, 02:25 PM
BTW, could you post a picture of you and your friends in Mountain Man garb? I think that would be a real turn on. Sounds like so much fun! Can girls go? Or is it just a guy thing?

LOL!

Birdygal,

Welcome! You're going to fit in real well here!!

**traxman** · 10-08-2003, 02:39 PM

Ughh... 25 plus posts in one or two days???

Remember everyone, please don't feed the trolls...

**machine** · 10-08-2003, 03:55 PM

WoW!!! I guess I should have read all of the posts, before I
opend my big mouth!

Ok.
A coyote @ 500 yards with an air gun?
a 12 gauge air shotgun, with more power then a standard 12?

The "pic" I saw of a guy that shot a pig with an air gun.
Was with a 200 grain 9MM 3000 psi air gun.
At 40 feet "not yards" and the pig was very small 125 pounds or less!

Now, your "baby" Beeman Kodiak, is a Webbely & Soctt, Patriot.
ALL beeman are imported!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beeman Does NOT make ANY of there own guns!
They are all Thoben's Air Arms, FX, Webbley's, BSA's, and Gamo's.

A pig with your Beeman (Webbely) NO... NO...
My be a piglet????

And your Webbely, out shooting a .22 rimfire??? come on!!!
I'd put my Ruger 77 .22 Mag up against it anytime!
Or my 10/22.

And to answer you ? about why does everyone want 1000 fps.
I have read here that everyone doesn't!
It's just what ever works for what they want to do with it.

OH!!! SWEET JESUS!!!

I almost forgot!

You paid 800-900 for your Webbely!!!

You got burned!!! BAD!!!! Sorry!
And you Bro's have 5k $ guns. Can you tell me what brand these are?

I too, know about air guns.
And I'd put my Webbely Patriot .22 (The Real deal)
against your Beeman/Webbely .25 anytime!

one more ?
You said that you where a student of killing for 55 years.
When do you gaduate???

**Csbishop** · 10-08-2003, 04:57 PM

Thank's Tim I could not have said it better myself

I see the crap got deeper while I was at work.

**MapMan** · 10-08-2003, 08:46 PM

CAK,

After reading your other post's I still don't know what to say......I am speechless..............You are one strange character..................

If you do have any pictures of you or your exploits, paleeeze keep them to yourself.

**Lone Wolf** · 10-08-2003, 09:32 PM

Cak

Don't know how I missed this earlier today, but the word Police are back. Don't think I can add too much to what everyone else has said except to add one small thing and that is that I grew up in the rural south and as a result have dealt with compost all my life. I've shoveled it, bagged it, and spread it. I've bought it fresh from others when we ran short, and have sold it when we had too much. But I must say in my short 44 years of life, before reading the variety of your posts on this forum, I don't think I ever seen it packaged the way you have here.

**jaehunt** · 10-08-2003, 11:49 PM

Classic

**machine** · 10-09-2003, 03:03 AM

NICE!!!!!

**RIFLEMAN** · 10-09-2003, 03:17 PM

Lone Wolf,

**Csbishop** · 10-09-2003, 08:07 PM

Well after reading all of cak post agian and all the following post from the guy's here.
You guy's said it better than I could of.
For a second there I though I was put in my place by cak.
Not
And sadly to say the only thing I have killed with my rws mod 48 22cal air rifle is crows. squirrel's,and rabbits.