Some MEUs still carry proven .45s

[spectr17]

Some MEUs still carry proven .45s

Mark Oliva, Stars and Stripes

14 January 2003

Not everyone in the U.S. military carries Beretta’s M-9 9 mm handgun. A small group of Marines still carry .45-caliber pistols — but they’re a far cry from Grandpa’s World War II gun.

Marine Corps officials keep about 500 .45-caliber pistols, based on the Colt M-1911A1 frame. They’re called MEU (SOC) .45s, specially designed for applications within the Marine Expeditionary Unit’s Special Operations Capable missions.

They’re issued to Force Reconnaissance Marines as secondary weapons to submachine guns for their role as the Maritime Special Purpose Force. This gun shoots up close and personal.

Marine Capt. Jeffrey Stower, project officer for the MEU (SOC) .45 at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., said the .45 is essential to Marines’ direct-action missions as a secondary weapon. It’s so important, in fact, that the Marine Corps plans to upgrade the weapon.

The Corps now builds its own specialized version of the .45-caliber pistol from existing M-1911A1 frames still in inventory.

Armorers at the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico refit the guns. They install new slides, barrels and internal components to what is called “near match” or “combat accuratized” specifications. Each weapon costs about $600 and is good for 30,000 shots before it needs to be refitted.

The planned improvements won’t affect the .45’s appearance or make it shoot faster or more smoothly. But they should make it more durable.

Stower said the Marine Corps wants to put in “hardened, drop-in parts, which would enhance the reliability and endurance of the weapon, as well as lower the echelon of maintenance.”

“The two biggest reasons we carry the .45 pistol,” said Marine Maj. Tracy Tafolla, “is a single-action loader is a little faster for the Marines to use when conducting close-quarters battle.”

“We get faster, stronger and more accurate shots that we just wouldn’t get with a double-action pistol,” said Tafolla, head of the Special Missions branch, III3rd Marine Expeditionary Force Special Operations Training Group. That means Marines can get off a first round faster, smoother and more accurately.

“Another reason we use the MEU (SOC) .45 is because of its ability to incapacitate a hostile person with one round,” Tafolla said. “We’re much more likely to do that with a .45 than with a 9 mm.”

Tafolla said the M-9 9 mm is a good weapon with good attributes. He said the safety of double-action triggers, high-capacity 15-round magazines and the fact it’s the same round used by other NATO allies makes it a natural fit for standard issue. He labeled the M-9 as a “good personal self-defense weapon.”

In fact, the same Marines who carry the beefy .45s also carry MP-5 submachine guns that shoot 9 mm rounds. But when firing those submachine guns, they shoot “double-taps,” or two squeezes on the trigger, to ensure an enemy soldier is hit with a massive amount of lead. Special Operations Training Group instructors teach a single shot to the head for the .45.

The MEU (SOC) .45 also is better able to survive harsh battlefield environments, Tafolla said. It can fire in dirtier conditions that would gum up the M-9; its heavier frame can take more abuse.

“Look at how many decades we’ve been using the .45,” the major said. “It’s a proven weapon.”

Tafolla said Marines using the specialized .45-caliber pistols expect to be fighting within steps of their enemy, “with very little stand-off room.” The time needed to get off a second shot can be the difference between life and death.

“They need a weapon that will be able to put somebody down now,” Tafolla said. “It all comes back to the energy you deliver to the target. Although the 9 mm is faster, the .45 is able to deliver more energy and achieve greater penetration. That’s what you have to have.”

[wmidbrook]

The FBI decided to go back to the .45 a while back. Link to an article on FBI's recent usage of the .45

Of course I was hooked on a 1911 the first time I shot one when I was 6 or so back in the late 60s...of course with a little support from my pops.

There are just too many incidents of people taking 18 hits of 9 mm and just kept on coming. You'd be hard-pressed to find accounts of someone taking more than 2 rounds of .45 before being knocked down permanently.

The metalugists @ Springfield (best around) have a barrel that keeps ultra cool--rumor has it they figured out how to mix metals and ceramics just right.

The fbi issue isn't available to the general public as I understand it due to barrels being as they are...

I'm still can't wait to hear about some experimentation going on there or with one of their subs being done with smooth barrels/sabots which essentially shoot a molten or almost molten projectile at something like 8,000 fps from a handheld rifle. Talk about a flat-shootin' rifle...it's really a great idea.

[LAgunman2K]

the military never should of left the 1911, but politics as usual plays a big part of decision making.

last i heard, S&W had the best metalurgist around, which is the reason why kimber is having there castings made there, and i heard wilson buys his stuff from kimber.
also, springfield gets there stuff out of brazil (maybe not anymore), and ive seen 3 different pics of SS SA 1911 slides that were cracked or totally broken off, all in the same area, all on SS 5" guns.
also not a big fan of the 2-piece barrels they use also.

[Spud]

I saw a photo years ago of a robber that had been in a shootout with police. He had been shot 33 times with a 9mm and had been "finally"killed with a load of OO buckshot from a 12ga. I don't think that would have happened with a .45. Just my $.02 worth.

[Constitutionalist]

This isn't new information, but still applies to this discussion:

"Bullet placement is key."

"You do what you trained for."

If you don't train to put bullets in someone's head, you won't.

There is one common ground of the five people I've seen with either a 9mm (2) or .45 (3) round through their heads (no other wounds): All were definitely, without a doubt, dead.

I carry a nine. After firing thousands of rounds through both, my ability to get the second round off (and third, etc.), on target (if the target hasn't gone down) was much easier with my nine. I don't fault someone for carrying a .45, but I, personally, was not comfortable with my inability to make quick, repeated "killing" shots with my .45 (like I can with my nine).

[1SoCalHunter]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I saw a photo years ago of a robber that had been in a shootout with police. He had been shot 33 times with a 9mm and had been "finally"killed with a load of OO buckshot from a 12ga.[/b]

WOW! 33 times? He must have been superman, I haven&#39;t seen anybody survive 33 "well" placed shots.
As far as a "one shot stopper" or "knock-down" power of the .45ACP I think that in recent studies or researches it was proven that the .40S&W was more effective in that department, wasn&#39;t it??

[Spud]

The photo showed him from the waist up, laying on the ground. The guy had holes all over him. He had to be "Hopped" up on some pretty good stuff to take that many rounds and keep firing at the cops. My dad spent 20 years in law enforcement and he had brought the book home from the PD. If I remember correctly, the name of the book was "Street Survival". A pretty good book to teach cops, with some pretty gruesome photos.

[Kernhuntr]

Originally posted by 1SoCalHunter@Jan 24 2003, 05:12 PM
As far as a "one shot stopper" or "knock-down" power of the .45ACP I think that in recent studies or researches it was proven that the .40S&W was more effective in that department, wasn&#39;t it??

Not in any studies I&#39;ve read. Bigger is always better. Mass beats volocity everytime.

Just my .02 worth.