Four-year-old kills two does in VA. Another parent who pushes a kid into hunting too soon?

[spectr17]

Another case of some parent who thinks it cool for a kid way to young to shoot a gun and go deer hunting. Why not just wait until the kid can SAFELY handle the gun himself? I hate more laws but this stupidity needs to be curtailed, if the parent doesn't have a lick of sense to know how unsafe this is then the state must step in.

http://www.tidewaternews.com/2012/01...kills-two-doe/

[Goodranger]

I fully agree Jesse. In Minnesota, you used to have to be 12yrs old and have your gun safety certificate before you could hunt big game with a firearm. Now they have changed it so you can hunt with an adult at 10yrs old, WITHOUT A GUN SAFETY CERTIFICATE!. I am sorry, but I have yet to meet a 10yr old that I would allow to shoot a high-power rifle to shoot a big game animal. Especially in this video game age.To me, they just are not mature enough. I think some parents are in too much of hurry for their kids to grow up. I have seen some of the hunting shows where the youngster shoots a deer, and then echoes the same giberish of the adults on the show on how the hunt went. It is obvious that they do not even know what they are talking about. SAD.

[Lost_By_Choice]

I disagree. He was under constant close supervision of his father and wasn't like the kid was toting the gun around himself. The problem these days is kids got 6-7 years of being sucked into the video games before they are allowed to go hunting. Good luck prying the game controller out of Jr's fat lil fingers and trying to coax him into actually getting exersize and go hunting for his food when he's been shooting hookers on grand theft auto since he was 5 and eating cheetos daily. I don't know if there are any statistics or not, but I can't help to think that a child who learned first hand that that there ARE consequences when you pull the trigger is less likely to have an accident once left to go at it alone than a child who was only told about it. Like any other values, start planting the seeds early.........just my opinion.

[baco]

My little one has been in the field with me since she was 3. The way she shoots I see nothing wrong with her shooting a deer or birds of course she would be closely supervised and the only one shooting

[Goodranger]

There is no way a 4yr old comprehends the consequences of pulling the trigger. And here in MN, a kid must hunt alongside an adult until they are 14. Most of my friends have taken their kids out to stands with them around 8yrs old, but no way do they get to have a gun with them until they are 12. We believe maturity is an important part of the equation. Bringing them with you on hunts at an early age will get them interested and excited to get to that magic age when they can participate as well....And if the 5yr old gets to play grand theft auto, then the parent should not be allowed to hunt or own weapons.

[TonyS]

Any parent who puts a gun in the hands of a small child should have to stand in front of it.

[Bullfrog 31581]

There is no way a 4yr old comprehends the consequences of pulling the trigger.

I agree. Putting aside the supervision/safety issue, I'm not sure that a 4 year old can understand the concept of hunting or the significance of killing an animal.

My very pro-gun family taught me to fear guns as a child and instilled onto me that I had no business handling one for any reason. Only as I got older did they shape that base fear of guns into a reverence for them.

[Lost_By_Choice]

I still don't see anything wrong with letting the kid pull the trigger. My old man let me shoot his guns when I was about the same age. He stood over me and held the gun so I couldn't do something stupid even if I wanted to just like I imagine the father in the story did something similar. This is a far cry from giving him a gun and telling him to go fetch dinner. Letting a kid ride a bike, skate board, ski, or sled are all far more dangerous than what this father did.............personally, I hope the kid gets a buck next year.

[henmar77]

No different then those genius parents that allow there kids to ride motorcycles and ATVs in the desert. That's why we have driving laws, offloading should be no different. A child that young hasn't developed the common sense and and know how. Really stupid and irresponsible!

[Goodranger]

Lost, it is not a question of safety. It is a question of responsibility, understanding, and maturity.

Do you have kids?

[Fugaloo]

I'm a little torn on this one. My boy will be seven in February. We go to the range and he has a few air guns and a single shot .22. He is fascinated with hunting, wildlife, gutting, butchering. etc etc...

There are several good points that have been made.

I think the most important one is does the child have the ability to process the killing of an animal emotionally? Boy what would Dr. Phil say? I say it's a much more honest approach that a child learns early on where their food comes from. In essence, it is a lack of this honesty that has given rise to the hypocritical anti hunting movement which includes a vast majority of meat eaters. What's wrong with a child knowing that meat comes from animals? They don't offer us the meat, we take it. This is the way it's always been. In relation to human history the modern convenient lifestyle we live that includes refridgeration, modern transportation, and farming methods, and also grocery stores that provide sustinence for a small fee and a minimal amount of time spent procuring said food is but a flash in the pan compared the amount of years humans spent directly harvesting their own food. I know it's a long sentence. But up until pretty recently in human history a four year old would have been commended for participating in working for the family. The fact that he was shooting a deer would have the same importance to survival as if he were plowing a field or protecting a herd of cattle. So my point is that for almost all of our species existance this taking of a life was not considered somenthing that should be traumatic or extremely emotional, but just another fact of life.

Secondly there is the safety issue. Dad was right there, Jr's shooting a .410, a gun very well suited for a smaller shooter and still capable of a humane kill from the distance they were shooting from. This wasn't his first time shooting, the kid had experience shooting that gun even.

A very good point also made was the relationship of video games and reality. Kids today have digital entertainment beating down their doors to get to them. Things like waiting in a doctors office now can't be accomplished without an angry birds session. They are exposed to more realistic violence on TV and in video games than they could ever handle. And that's not a parenting thing, once they get out of sesame street it's all saturated with fighting and sex. You can set your rules and have guidelines but you can't control what goes on at other houses and there is just so much of it. This goes back to my statement about honesty. To show these kids that you can Rambo your way through an entire army with an AK-47 and a Xbox controller, or that you can eat happy meals for a couple of bucks is one in the same. To show a child that every animal and plant in this world is connected, and that we are at the top of the food chain, and that we NEED to be at the top of the food chain to survive is akin to telling an adopted person (like me) at an early age that they were adopted. It just becomes a fact of life, and not a big deal...as it should be. There was a time, even in some our our older members lives when there was no taboo about hunting. Because not too long before that hunting was a part of survival for everybody. Not just the men who were the hunters but everybody who was fed by those hunters. I would rather my boy know the experience of killing a doe than have him bombarded with all the violence and sex that currently dominates the entertainment world.

Although four is pretty dang young I have to think this is OK. Like I said,, my guy is six and I think I would let him shoot small game, maybe not a deer. But who else but the parent should be able to make that decision.

[Lost_By_Choice]

Extremely well said Fugaloo!

[spectr17]

He didn't just pull the trigger. Their words, not mine

"“He (James) wanted to try and I told it him ‘it will kick you pretty good.’”


Standing behind James, Brian Futrell watched James shoot at some targets.

“He said, ‘that thing kicks, but that was fun.’”

Youtube is full of videos with dad trying to make a man out of a kid way to small to be handling a gun. Not only is it unsafe but many times the shotgun doesn't even fit the kid and they fumble around with A LOADED GUN. Let's also take note of the flinch you will instill in a kick from a gun that "kicks real good". I've personally watched a small child fumble around with a shotgun too big for them at the range and it's flat out unsafe if they can't even mount the gun or hold on to it. How long till pops there sticks a 12 ga in juniors had and tells him he's not a real man until he shoots the big gun? 6 years old? 5 years old? We're talking not even in kindergarten here. Next 4 year old you see at a range go hand them a shotgun and see what happens. That is if you can get their attention long enough. I went with my dad when I was 4 and sat on the log as a lookout. As I got older I got the .410 and .22. I was tall for my age, a head taller than my friends but I didn't get to shoot any squirrel/rabbits guns until I was almost 8. And even then the guns didn't fit me right, most families didn't have many guns where I grew up so sawing stocks off was not an option. It's plain common sense really, violate gun safety and someone will pay the price.


If your answer is let junior have a gun ASAP to prevent them from being sucked into video games you have more problems then just gun safety on your hands.

Hell, why not strap blocks on his feet and put a pillow under his butt and teach him to drive? Dad can be right there sitting next to him right? Even help him steer.

[Fugaloo]

Well Jesse, My wife thinks kids shouldn't be introduced to hunting until they are almost teenagers. It's her opinion and she gets to have it. She is also 1/2 of the decision making team that will set the age for my son to shoot his first animal. Although I agree that four is young, his father is ultimately the one who decides what is safe enough. There is no real hard science here saying that some imaginary age is the perfect age. What your saying here is that instilling a flinch is enough reason to call it off. I've seen plenty of those videos too, and more often than not the dad is pushing it. There was also a story a few years back about a kid firing a mini uzi on full auto at one of those machine gun rental places in the desert. The gun rose up and ending up putting I think two bullets in his head. But kid in our story was firing a .410, probably a single shot break action, super light....a kid's gun. This is not a case of a dad putting a 12g in his kids hand for the first time right before the doe walks by. The kid was comfortable enough to make two kills, I think that really speaks volumes for the fit between gun and kid. And what is the perfect number? To you it is in direct relation to your personal history. My opinion is based on my childhood. Who should have final say, the parents, or the state?

As for video games, the analogy was simply made to address the issue of whether the child could digest the reality of taking a life. The concept to most children is something they relate to Call of Duty. To a hunter, taking a life means something real.

And I do let him drive sometimes, he sits in my lap and I work the pedals while making sure he keeps it from hitting anything. What's the harm? Didn't your dad let you do that when you were a kid. We don't go more than a block or two in the neighborhood, but he thinks it's a blast.

[spectr17]

I really doubt this small tot shot 2 deer on his own, more like dad aimed the gun for him and him and junior pulled the trigger. I own a break barrel .410 and yes it's small and light to me but to a tiny kid like that it's not easy to wield around and aim steady. I'm going to test this with the neighbors kid, he's about the same size. I just want to see if he can even hold it very long and aim it. Yes it's a kids gun but it's also a gun capable of killing someone. Can a kid barely able to tie his shoes manage that?

[Fugaloo]

In all honesty I doubt he knows how to tie his shoes. And if dad helped him hold it, what's the harm?

[Lost_By_Choice]

OK, just to make sure I got this right......since some parents allow their kids to handle guns unsafely, the state should step in and regulate it for all? Because, I've seen a lot more adults being dumb with guns than I have seen kids so where should we end this stricter regulation? Unless I'm missing something, you are using the same arguement the anti-gun nuts use to ban guns all together......punish the masses because of the stupidity of the few. IMO, if a parent wants to start their kids hunting at 4, then it's no ones business to tell them otherwise. If you think it's too young, thats fine too, then don't start your kids out that young. If you see someone being unsafe with a gun, kid or adult, talk to them or report them. If you seen a kid handle a gun unsafe at the gun range, it has less to do with age and more to do with the level of involvement of the parent in relation to his age. Lets face it, if a parent would let a 4 year old have free range with a gun, then it doesn't matter if the kid is 4, 12, or 18, the parent is still gonna set a bad example. Either way, shouldn't ruin it for the ones who are doing it safely.

[Lost_By_Choice]

"I really doubt this small tot shot 2 deer on his own, more like dad aimed the gun for him and him and junior pulled the trigger."

I'm almost positive that's what he did, what's wrong with that?

[spectr17]

I'm almost positive that's what he did, what's wrong with that?

Because if you read the article the headline clearly says JUNIOR shot the deer. Junior shot the gun, etc. Not Dad held the gun while junior helped pull the trigger. This will no doubt inspire some dad to turn his kid loose because he wants his kid to man up too. The neighbor wouldn't let me use her boy as a test, her words were "Are you crazy, he's only 4?" I'm going to ask this same question around some gun shops and ranges, just curious how many out there really think this is a good idea.

[Goodranger]

Jesse, please let us know the results of your poll. I am pretty sure I already know what the results will be.