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Thread: The Secret War in Laos - 1962

  1. #31
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    Some guys are getting pretty brave selling secret maps on eBay. This is an interesting 1962 Mosaic if you want if:

    http://bit.ly/SBFu54




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  2. #32
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    What did CCT do? The Butterfly and Raven FACs primary mission was to, from what I've heard, flew in spotter aircraft locating targets and directing air strikes. CCT assigned to Lima sites were there to direct air cover if the site was attacked. Given the training CCTers had prior to these assignments there could have more. See the Loas link at Sgt. Mac's bar. Another good site to check out is http://www.angelfire.com/home/laoslist/crl60.html. It lists the names of those who served in Laos. On a side note, the TSQ-81 TACAN appears to be the main piece of equipment used at all Lima sites. In the 60's the two requirements to be a Combat Controller were the completion of basic jump school at Ft Benning GA and CCT school at Seward AFB TN. The training was not as thurough or as intense as it is today but a requirement none the same.

  3. #33
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    Admin deleted by request, PERSEC and other reasons

  4. #34
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    Naylor's AFSC didn't sound right with the B suffix. Vietnam was a few year before my time in USAF so I can't add anything about his claims. Naylor should know if he was CCT or not. Sounds like Mac is right, Naylor is embellishing his time in Laos. He should change his family page if he is not CCT. I've seen several fake PJs exposed, this would be the first CCT fake I've seen. Have there been others?
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  5. #35
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    Maybe, I can help the Air Force Vets put it all together?

    Based on my observance, there were no Air Force Recon flights during 1962. At that time everyone was restricted from using Jet Aircraft by the Accord. The only mode of transportation was Air America, and it was operated by the CIA. (Civilians) They were Civilian prop aircraft, like C-47 or DC- 3. There were no railroads or paved highways.

    It was a paramilitary operation in the mist of an on going opium operation. Americans did not knowingly transport opium, but the stuff was probably hid in the cargo somewhere.

    Here is a photo I found with a Google Search that shows exactly the way it was in 1961. That attack was just before I arrived in Vientiane March of 62. Notice that after a Pathet Lao attack, the vegetation was barren.

    http://www.magnumphotos.com/image/PAR216727.html

    During that 1961 attack the Topographic Service was destroyed and the USOM VHF Radio Tower was knocked down by the Pathet Lao, or maybe their Russian Advisors.

    That's how I started my March of 1962 mapping career in Vientiane. In the ashes of the 1961 attack. Needless to say, knowing that the Army's Topo Map project was a high value target, I spent my entire time in Laos looking over my shoulder.

    The maps that are on eBay are not the Tactical Maps the we made during an attack or an offensive. Our 1:13,000 Topo/Aerial Quadrangles were updated with current Destroyed Areas and known enemy positions.

    My attached cell pic shows the (5) Topographic Service and a nearby (4) building in the USOM (MAAG) Compound radio destroyed. With modern Google Earth we can still study those areas today. The USOM Compound survived to this day.

    These are cell pics of my 1961 Battle Map:

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346015563.277086.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346015587.527338.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346015616.442723.jpg




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  6. #36
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    spectr17 - This is the first one I've seen on line; have heard of several being called out in person, I called out two on my own. Like Mac said I feel sorry for Rich because now it brings his whole service career into question.
    map - To my knowledge the FAC flights started the next year in 1963. Check SgtMacsBar/Laos it has some good CCT info. You guys may also find your names on the angelfire websit I listed above. As I said in my first thread I was not in SEA or any other conflict, makes me feel I didn't get the chance to pull my own weight brfore being medically removed from jump (and active CCT) status. But for what I did do its nice to know I'm a 'has been' istead of a 'never was.'

  7. #37
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    May I suggest that we go back and read the historical account posted by the Central Intelligence Agency, before we call anyone out. I still suffer bouts of PTSD after 50 years. Let's not cause further damage to our brave men & women who have served our country so bravely.

    Based on my experience working with MACV Saigon, I trust the United States Government, especially the CIA. The CIA study clears up what the Air Force CCT did at Lima.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...ss/Linder.html

    Also, what ever happened after September 27, 1962 when the 8 of us went onto Saigon, (we were the last Army Advisors to sign the Accords) was in violation of International Agreement, and subject to trial before the World Court. If convicted it would be death by firing squad.

    That alone is enough to cause PTSD. Guilt makes a man start to cover his tracks. I still have all my papers and Flight Manifest to Saigon, just in case I ever have to go before a tribunal.



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    P304X4, can you please post the Laos link that is on Mac's website? I searched for it but cannot find a Laos link there for some reason. Thanks. That Angelfire Laos list has a lot of brave folks on it.

    It is a shame that Naylor's service is now in question. As Mac points out he should be proud of what he did actually do in Laos, if he really was in Laos. Where did you run into the CCT posers?
    Jeff "Jesse" James - Owner of Jesse's Hunting & Outdoors

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  9. #39
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    spectr17 - Try going to this site http://www.sgtmacsbar.com/CCTPhotos/...Laos/Laos.html it has the most info that others have helped compile for Mac. Two posers... The first poser was in tech school, I told a friend that I signed up for CCT and another guy tried to tell me he was CCT. The guy had no jump wings, didn't know where CCT school was and had flunked out of needed tech training. Second was many years later, guy had a beret flash (insignia) on a ball cap with other army tads and insignia. I asked him when he was in the AF. His response was he spent his whole time in the army. When I asked about the flash I expected him to say he bought in the exchange or nicked it from a CCTer who let his guard down. Instead he tried to tell me he earned it...he knew nothing about ATC or radio maint. Both were no brainers.

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    I am not defending Naylor, but I was there in person. Hardly anyone assigned to MAAG Laos worked at their assigned MOS. I had taken a few courses in Land Surveying at a Junior College in Michigan as a civilian, and worked with my Uncle pulling chain. He was a Registered Land Surveyor. With those qualifications I was attracted to the civilian Geological Survey workers in Vientiane.

    Although my duties are still classified, I feel safe to reveal that Laos in 1962 was not a sustained military conflict. It was a brush-fire war, so there really wasn't much to on a daily bases. Most of us found something interesting to keep busy.

    My MOS was 765, so I was trained to order electronic parts from the Signal Corps Depot. How often did we need parts ordered? About 3 times during my assignment in Vientiane. We had USOM vehicles at out disposal and toured the country side during our day off. We all lived in apartments provided by the various Embassy, and almost everyone had a Thai girlfriend living with them. Also, we hired Laos women, (sometimes a married couple) for maid service. The Lao women were very strict Buddhist, so sex with foreigners was unheard of.




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  11. #41
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    The only poser I've seen in person who was caught lying about their AFSC/MOS was at Keesler AFB when I was there for MRC-107 school. He was a black Sgt wearing jump wings, Combat Crew patch and he had his boots bloused. He was way out of 35-10 with his hair and claimed TACP/Romad on a break one day when his class mingled with ours. Unfortunately for him there were 2 Sgts standing with me from our class that really were TACP/Romad. They asked him a couple questions and then told him he needed to take off the jump wings and patch and unblouse his boots. I saw the poser Sgt. a few weeks later and he wasn't wearing the jump wings or CC patch. Never did hear what happened to him or if it went back to his squadron.

    There was another member who used to be on the forum on here who claimed his dad was a Navy SEAL and had trained him (the son) in ninja skills and instilled a great set of values in him. I checked the name and his dad wasn't in the SEAL BUDS list. Naturally the son's story changed to it was all classified then. I heard a couple years back he (son) got popped for poaching lobsters here in SoCal. You can't make this stuff up.
    Jeff "Jesse" James - Owner of Jesse's Hunting & Outdoors

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  12. #42
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    Jesse,

    For sure Naylor was there when I was there. I can follow along in my memory as I read his stuff. I read somewhere at his site that he went to Vietnam in September of 1962, and that was the month that I got kicked out of Laos by the International Control Committee. I checked to see if he was one of the final 8, and he is not on the list.

    Whether the Air Force actually landed planes at Wattay Airport in Vientiane is questionable, but there were the same Air Force planes without markings. Including small single engine Cessna type planes. One large transport plane designed for short runways.

    Attached is two more Cell Pics of the 1961 attack. The destroyed areas are covered with black hash lines. The close up shows what appear to be a line of Steel Containers at Wattay Airport.

    If Naylor or other Air Force personnel were there they took some Pathet Lao mortar fire.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346218158.461942.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346218183.654547.jpg




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  13. #43
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    map
    I haven't seen any specifics on any of Naylors claims and I'm not going to question whether or not he was in the AF or in Nam. He may even have been in Laos although some of his story doesn't quite jive with what I've heard from others that I know were there. I'll take a big WAG that he may have been given extra ATC training for working an unimproved dirt strip, if thats the case, but it still would not make him a Combat Controller any more than it would have made you an Army Pathfinder (where CCT grew from after the AF became a separate service). When he or any one embellishes thier military time it overshadows thier true accomplishments. He needs to give names dates and places of where he was and what he did (since a lot of info has now been declassified) it would go a long way toward restoring the credit he deserves. You seem to know where to find more info than I do maybe you could give him a nudge in the right direction, then we can all prost a beer to his service.

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    Well, for one thing, the Air Force guys lived at the Royal Thai Air Base in Udorn, Thailand. What ever they did in Laos? They had to be flown home at the end of the day, because they didn't live in the mud like the Army personnel do.

    The 2 attached cell pics are from my VHS recording of the 35 mm slides that I took while on duty in Vientiane. I ran the tape on my television in the family room, paused, and then took the cell pics. The apartments were owned by the French, and as you can see, we needed 4X4 to get home from work. Not exactly an Air Force assignment.

    We did not have a Motor Pool, and all the vehicles belonged to USOM. We were free to use them for what ever we wanted. USOM also had Army trucks if we wanted to use them.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346473182.950406.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1346473429.470581.jpg


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    Here is another site I came accross Dark Shadows in the Black Laotian Night by R. Naylor. Remembering that the author is an E-3 in '63 (may have made E-4 by '64) he could have been a team member but this just isn't something an AF E-3 would be in charge of. There are some facts that are correct, some that are off base and some unclassified info and names that can't be found on Laos websites, BTW does anyone rember an aircraft type EB-6? Don't remember the designation and can't find it. Could be sighted wrong but might be a Navy A-6 or an AF EB (or RB)-66. E is for electronics so may be something else. I think it was around 65 or later before the E version of the A-6's were introduced. Know only what I've read about MACV and SOG but you were there Map maybe you can fill in some gaps I'm missing in the narative. Also I don't think that all CCTers on the Lima Sites were flown out of Laos every night but were on frequent rotations. I'd like to give this guy some slack but the more I see the less I believe, most of his verified facts are common knowledge on other websites. Help me out here.

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    Last edited by map; 09-30-2012 at 10:02 PM.

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    P304x4

    MACV had just been organized when I arrived in Saigon. As with my assignment in Laos, they really didn't have a full time job for me. No one knew what they were supposed to do. We just found something to keep us busy. I had a Jeep and Vietnamese driver, but he refused to do what I told him. I always had it in the back of my mind to shoot him first if there was trouble.

    Our weapons were kept under lock & key at all times. However, when I arrived in Saigon an officer who was departing for CONUS insisted that I purchase his Colt Python .357 mag. It would shoot the Air Force steel jacket 38 Special which was in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. It was a 6 shot revolver, but in reality it was a 3 shot weapon. I was taught to shoot 2 shot groups. bang-bang bang-bang bang-bang. The Python had a very smooth action designed for that type of close-in defense shooting.

    Then upon shipping out to CONUS exactly 6 months later, another officer showed up and demanded that I sell the Colt Python to him. He paid me the $93 that I had paid the first officer 6 months previously.

    Besides going to the Post Office and traveling north to georeference arial maps, I spent most of my time typing documents for 6 Army Majors inside an air-conditioned office. Regardless of what combat operations takes place in the field, there is always a Major who keeps the supply of men and material flowing. There is a lot of office work that has to be done when a general decides to move his forces. The soldiers have to eat 3 meals a day, etc If I remember correctly, we only slept 4 hours a day when there was some action from the Viet Cong. That didn't happen very often while I was in Laos or Vietnam. It was mostly a battle of nerves, with our side chickening-out at the first shot fired. Vietnam scared me, but Laos didn't.



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    Last edited by map; 09-30-2012 at 08:24 PM.

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    P304X4, someone in CCT needs to call Naylor out and expose him, he knows he was not CCT and he appears to be posting some wild stories. What is the latest from Mac, is he still talking to Naylor? I know it's going to suck for his family to find out Naylor was full of crap but he's dishonoring those that were CCT and the others who risked their lives.

    Well, for one thing, the Air Force guys lived at the Royal Thai Air Base in Udorn, Thailand. What ever they did in Laos? They had to be flown home at the end of the day, because they didn't live in the mud like the Army personnel do.
    Map, you're making comments about a unit you know nothing about. I can assure you USAF air commandos live in the mud and rocks with the Army, Navy, local indigenous forces and whoever else they are embedded with at that time. You are thinking regular USAF, there is a whole nother side to Uncle Sam's Flying Circus going back to the Chindits in Burma that scraped out LZs in the jungle with air dropped dozers to fight the Japanese in WWII.

    You also can't assume Naylor was even in Laos or in the military, the Stolen Valor websites are full of guys who glean info from declassified files and put together a complete fraud for their military fairy tales. So far nothing Naylor says or posts adds up, his nomenclature is off on the equipment he trained on and used? As P304X4 said, he needs to name some names and places that can be vetted, his word alone is very suspect right now. If he indeed do some of what he's claiming he should be proud of that and I'll buy him a beer to thank him for his service.
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  19. #49
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    Jesse,

    While in Laos I pulled night guard duty at the USOM Compound on a regular basis. (under bright lights) While in Vietnam I went on night patrol with the Army of South Vietnam a few times. Believe me, there were no Americans out in the Jungles alone at night.

    Everything was done during daylight hours, because there was no night vision goggles. It was so dark that we had to hang on to the guy in front of us, or be lost for ever.

    Let the guys have their fun telling War Stories. It's impossible for a military mission to operate without a support group. If those guys want to make it sound like they were a one man Army, it makes for good reading. :-)


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    Map, you're the first one I've run into that thinks that way about Pathfinders. Perhaps you should read up about some of the American teams that operated at NIGHT in the jungle in Vietnam. Not everyone was inside the wire like you every night. Ever hear of glint tape and low light TV and scopes? Yes we didn't have NVGs but they had other means to see in the night.

    It's also not someone just telling war stories, Naylor's posing as CCT which he says he's not sure if he was or not???? Never met anyone who wasn't sure if they were SEAL or SF. Maybe it doesn't matter to you but others take stolen valor pretty seriously. His claims need to be vetted, he's the one putting it out there like he was some kind of hero on sneaky pete missions with his blog and other postings. E-3 tasked with the missions he's claiming? Like P304X4 posted, that ain't happening.
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    Jesse,

    What the War Stories are implying is that the United Stated Military didn't comply with the Geneva Accords. I'm not the one telling war stories, I am one of the military who actually went before the International Control Committee and signed the agreement.

    The Russians were at one of the tables where I signed. The Russians were our Cold War enemies all through the South East Asia wars. And, according to Obama the Russians are still our enemy today.

    In order to let the actual facts govern, during my assignments in both Laos and Vietnam during the years 1962 - 1963, all US Military personnel had their weapons under lock & key at all times.

    In addition, we were the guests of the country where we worked as Advisors. Not all missions were military, and advisors worked in all aspects of advising the civilian methods of Western Civilization.

    Whether or not the war stories are true? I can not comment on them, because they obviously took place long after I returned to CONUS.

    The only military weapons that I handled were during the training of the indigenous soldiers of the countries where I was a guest. The same applies to mapping, night patrols, and all military exercises. Combat, non-combat, and security.

    If I were to witness any of the events in the war stories, I was under strict orders to report directly to Major General Tucker, MAAG Laos, or General Harkins, MACV Vietnam. Not to report to my commanding officer, but directly to the General.

    According to the CIA report in the Link that I posted above, a few untrained US Air Force and Civilians were flown into Laos daily to man a radar station long after I had returned to Sacramento Army Depot. Those events had to happen under President Johnson, not Kennedy.

    The only weapon that I used for self defense was a Colt Python 4 inch that fired steel jacket 38 Special ammo.




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    Last edited by map; 10-03-2012 at 07:58 AM.

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    Do you even read my posts or P3034X4's posts Map? That's all nice what you posted but it's not what the issue is about. The issue is Naylor and his embellishing his military service or outright fraud. I also mentioned your comments about USAF units that you seem to know nothing about.
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    At best, there were 2 or 3 unmarked Spotter Aircraft parked at Wattay Airport in Vientiane, Laos.


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  24. #54
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    After thinking about my last post, I can remember asking an officer about the spotter aircraft at Watty. He said, "Shhhhh". Now I remember that they did have United States insignia on them. However, I can not associate Cessna type single engine planes with the Air Force CCT that these war stories are about. President Kennedy ordered 5,000 Marines to Udorn Air Force Base in nearby Thailand. That was during my final days in Vientiane, and I would have noticed the spotter planes at Wattay earlier if they were there. I had made many trips to Wattay.

    If you guys copy all if my posts in this thread and put them together like a book, you will find a consistent account of actually what happened during my duty in Laos & Vietnam. I can not, nor will I verify any of the war stories about CCT's in Laos. I have read some of it, and they are no more than an expression of Valor. Not facts!

    I fully support the CIA report that I posted above, based on my service with the United States Government. They don't lie! The report says that some time after I returned to CONUS the Air Force flew CCT's from Udorn Air Base in Thailand to man a radar site. Then they had to be flown back home to Udorn. When the radar site fell into enemy hands, the CCT's were not trained in basic combat. They were not trained to hold their position like soldiers. They split up in the face of enemy fire.



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    First "Butterfly" aircraft were single engine Cessnas (150's?) OV-1 I think was the designation. O-2's and OV-10's came later. Map from what I gather from your time line you were on your way out of Laos when the Butterfly program was just starting. As for CCT on Lima sites check out the account of site 85 in Macs website http://www.sgtmacsbar.com/CCTPhotos/...Laos/Laos.html. Back in the 60's & 70's CCTers weren't to engage an enemy force unless it couldn't be avoided. If we were able to infill, do our assigned task and exfill without firing a shot then we did our job according to plan. The idea was to covertly set up a DZ/LZ for the engaging force to find the same spot at the same time much like the Pathfinders did in an all army assualt. Also check out TACP websites, in the 60's & 70's they were the other P304X4's. As for Naylor, I think he was AF and someone mentioned that the picture of him on his "Naylor's in the military" website could have been in 'Nam beyond that he's mostly been written off unless he tries to use it for public/private gain which is against the law; in that case the poser websites will pick it up. I also thought he once wrote that he never used an M-16 or Colt AR-15 in SEA if the pic is in Nam what he has over his arm has got to be one or the other; actually thier the same rifle Colt was the civi stamp and M-16 was military. My first assigned rifle was stamped Colt AR-15, also was assigned a S/W 38 Special Combat Masterpiece in 1969.


    It is but a fine line that separates hard core from dumb a**. Learned from Viet Nam vet.

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    My time line is the correct time line, because I was actually there in 1962.

    Jul 23, 1962: The Geneva Conference on Laos forbid the United States from invading eastern Laos, site of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Therefore, the US Spotter Aircraft that I seen at Wattay were in conjunction with the 5,000 Marines sent to nearby Udorn, Thailand. They were sent by President Kennedy to protect the 300 American Advisors in Laos when Vientiane fell leaving the Advisors stranded.

    Per Executive Order from President Kennedy, all military personnel in Laos signed the Geneva Accords in July 1962 in front of each Country present. We went before the International Committee in small groups, and we knew one another. Everyone at the airport had armed military guards except the American Advisors. We were then escorted by armed guards outside to waiting Air America Aircraft at Wattay Airport. They looked like DC-3 or C-47 Civilian cargo planes with Air America (not US Military insignia) on them. The engines were running, and as soon as we boarded the aircraft we taxied down the runway, took off, and flew directly out of the country of Laos.

    Our first stop was Da Nang Airbase in Vietnam were we had lunch and were de-briefed. Later in the afternoon we flew the same aircraft to Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon, Vietnam. There was a van waiting that took us to a nice Hotel in Saigon were we had a few weeks of rest & recuperation before being assigned duties in Vietnam.

    The war stories had to take place long after I completed my 6 month tour in Saigon and returned to CONUS. In other words, the war stories had to happen under President Johnson.


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    Quote Originally Posted by spectr17 View Post
    Do you even read my posts or P3034X4's posts Map? That's all nice what you posted but it's not what the issue is about. The issue is Naylor and his embellishing his military service or outright fraud. I also mentioned your comments about USAF units that you seem to know nothing about.
    Jesse,

    I will go out on a limb and tell you that between March 1962 and July 1962, I heard the term "Butterfly" mentioned while off duty in Vientiane Laos. These were casual remarks made by Regular Army Advisors.

    The term, "Butterfly" was not mentioned between July 1962 and March 1963 in Vietnam. Nor did I hear anyone mention that Highly Classified Term until recently here on the Internet.


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    Last edited by map; 10-06-2012 at 11:27 AM.

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    Map
    I'm not questioning any of what you went through, if you check the website in my prior post I think it stated that AF CCTers used as Butterfly FAC's started cerca 1963 through 1966. All I'm saying is if you came out in 1962 then you may have just missed each other. Who may have been involved in Butterfly ops prior to 1963?...I have no idea. There are other sites that back up our involvement (1966 Palace Dog...when Raven replaced Butterfly) to at least 1971 including the CIA's. Others give dates to 1973 and a couple have stated up to May 1975 (maybe beyond?) when the last known military personel left Viet Nam in Saigon. As I have stated in the past I was not in Laos (or SEA) the closest I came was a TDY to S. Korea in 1971. I'm just starting to learn how many CCT personel were there, some of which I know personally, that is why I take CCT posers personally; that was the only reason I joined this thread. BTW trivia: the last NCO to leave Saigon on the last Huey out was E-7 CCT (ATC-P272X0D) Louis O. Brabham. Also- I haven't found anything on the web yet but I remeber hearing in '69 that army advisors were in Viet Nam as far back as the mid to late '50s (1958 maybe?) could they have been in Laos/Cambodia that early also? Still looking to learn more. My brother was in Da Nang 1966-67 as an army mechanic, he worked on heavy equipment...track vehicles and trucks.

    Jesse
    Any additional thoughts? You use Spectr...how long in the Gun Ship? At Hurlburt I was ground crew working dry fire training and setting beacons for live fire on the ranges ('78-'85). Ever fly left circles around ranges 77 & 78 making lots of noise? TSgt Joel Mayo was a neighbor of mine, the street we lived on was named in his honor after he died in the crash at Desert One in Iran. I knew the officers on a professional level as well. Did you know any of them?

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    P304X4,

    Thanks, I'm glad that I have made some headway on the 1962 date. The reason why I started this thread was because it has been exactly 50 years. I had been reading some crap on the Internet that needed to be corrected, because it's untrue and incriminating for the 300 Advisors and the Kennedy Administration. We signed an international agreement in front of member Nations. The penalties for breaking that Agreement was the World Court and death by firing squad. No one in there right mind would have risked it for a few enlisted Air Force privates to harass a supply line.

    When Prince Suvana Phuma's Neutralist Government requested help from the Jonson Administration, that is the earliest date that the war stories can be anchored.

    Figuratively speaking, what Naylor wrote is the correct tone and metaphor for Laos during 1962. If there actually had been harassment of the North Vietnamese supply line in eastern Laos during 1962, it would have been like what Naylor wrote. For sure, the crap would have come directly from the Air Base in Udorn Thailand, because that is not how the Army operates.



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    MAP
    I'm not to familiar with all the sneaky tricks our gov. pulled but I think your own experience with the accords was a red flag in Naylor's story, especially when you stated that all military personel who were in Laos/Cambodia were made to sign the accords and...none were allowed back in?...am I following you correctly here? The 1963 CCTers would not have been there before the accords were signed meaning no over lap for anyone between the '62 signing & '63 reinsertion...or am I off base with that thought? Also what appears to be another red flag is that the story of the aircrew rescue attempt would have been deamed a search and rescue (SAR) (at least thats what they were called in 'Nam) and would have included at least one AF Para Rescueman in case any aircrew member was found alive near the crash site. If I'm right on this train of thought then you helped to nail him with your own experience. I'm not questioning your thread I only want a clear picture of what was suppose to have went down in all this and if I'm wrong please put me on the right track. As far as what AF ground forces have done in Nam (along w/Laos and Cambodia) and since then, I would invite you to go fishing on the net an check out CCT, Combat Weather, TACP (later ROMAD also "LOVINGLY" called NONADs), and Para Rescue, I think you'll be surprised how they have all come of age and how much Army and Navy units have relied on them. I don't remember all the details but the Navy recently named a cargo vessel in honor of a fallen CCter for his efforts to save a Navy SEAL in Afganistan. Also check the story of Airman Partsenbarger (spelling may be wrong) a PJ in 'Nam.

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