Problems sighting in Rifle...PLEASE HELP ASAP

[J.O.]

So here's the deal, I have been to the range at rahaaguees twice to confirm my zero on my rifle. I'm shooting a remington 700 XCR RMEF edition in stainless 30.06 with a Nikon Monarch 4x16x50sf with the remington medium scope rings.. I've used shooting bags everytime I've ever sighted in a rifle. I usually will get my rifle close with the federal power shok 30.06 180grn round nose ($17 a box) ammo and fine tune with my hunting rounds federal vital shok 30.06 180grn nosler accubonds ($46 a box). I'm using the same rifle I used last year and sighted it in using the same exact methods and rounds. In the end (last season) I was shooting 1/4-1/2" groups at 100yrds with the nosler accubonds. I wait 3-5min before each round fired to cool the rifle.

Day 1 - So this year I go the range the first time and start shooting. Its approx 95deg out. I start out shooting the cheaper ammo and get it close. I go to fine with the accubonds and the rifle is all over the place. For example what I mean is I shoot one and its 3" low and right, the next will be 1" high and left, and then 3" high right. Those are not exactly in order but you get the point. So I double check the scope mount bolts and everything is tight no problems there. I then continue to shoot the accubonds and still all over the place.(the accubonds have the same LOT #'s). I ended up shooting 2 box of accubonds and half a box of the cheaper round nose. I left the range because I was out of ammo. I mean damn. I've never had this problem before, I didn't think I would need more ammo. Day one $150 spent.

Day 2 - So I head back to the range yesterday (about 85deg) with the same amount of ammo. (Again i wait 3-5 min before each round to let cool) I put a couple round through it with the round nose and its dead on everytime. I start shooting the accubonds and AGAIN its all over the place. I shot out one 25 rounds of the accubonds and could never get it to be correct. I can shoot the round nose all day with 3/4-1" groups.

At this point I'm so lost I don't know what to do!!! I've now spent almost $300 sighting in my rifle. I can guarrantee where the bullet will land with the round nose but cannot depend on the accubonds. Federal says that the round nose is for medium size game like deer. I hunt deer and bear so I need a round that can take both and I shoot at longer ranges so I need a flatter shooter. Thats why I went with the accubonds. If anyone has any idea what the hell I'm doing wrong don't be shy to tell me. I'll take any advice you guys might have. I've got this weekend to finish dialing it it before season starts.

PLEASE HELP Thank you JO

[ltdann]

Stick with the 180 gr round nose then. It's obvious the rifle likes 'em. Could be the rifle could benefit from a good barrel cleaning.

180 grns is 180 grns. That's alot wummpff downrange.

[solus]

Try a different brand I've found that sometimes if ou use the same brand but different types it won't shoot the same I sight my rifles in with the cheapest ammo I can find with 180grn and finalize with the brand I want I used to shoot the federals but recently changed to the winchester non-lead ammo

[J.O.]

I thought the cleaning issue too, so I did a quickie clean and didn't notice a difference. I'll pull it apart and clean it real good tonight. I'm gonna be down at the range saturday morning to try for the last time. Plus my hunting partner needs to double check his again anyways.

Still waiting on a call back from Federal to see if there was any manufacturing issues that they were aware of.

[54hawken]

I hand load 180 grain accubonds for my 30-06, get best acuracy after 2 fouling shots then under 1/2 groups for 20 rounds then acuracy falls off and I have to remove all copper from bore and start over

[J.O.]

Well...sounds like a cleaning issue might be the remody. Still waiting on that call back from federal...So far I'm not too pleased with their customer service

[inchr48]

A patch with copper solvent, like Sweet's, will let you know in a hurry (blue/green residue).

Sounds like this could be it though. The longer bearing surface of the round nose gives you accuracy, while the pointed bullets are spreading out in their group.

Let us know how it shakes out.

[myfriendis410]

I have a rifle that shoots 1/4" groups regularly with my TSX handloads. It's a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm r.m. One Friday I shot three rounds and the group was 1 1/4" for three shots. I took the rifle home and cleaned it using the Barnes CR10 bore cleaner. Wet a brush, pass it through the barrel ten times, wait five minutes and run a dry patch through. The patch was so dark blue that it was almost black!. I continued doing this until the patch came out a light gray, which TOOK THREE HOURS! Monday morning I shot three rounds again and---1/4" group.

I agree that cleaning is your most likely issue. The Accubond is a fantastic bullet and if I were going to load the -06 for accuracy that's where I'd start.

[J.O.]

Man you guys are goodHit the nail right on the head.

I just got off the phone with Federal. I spoke with a gentleman by the name of Don Davis 763-852-8782. Very nice gentleman and seems very knowledgable. I've been using the regular hoppes 9. Which is why I have not remedied the situation. He told me to go get http://www.hoppes.com/products/bench_rest9.html . Its a coppier specific cleaner. I'm not very knowledgable and made this mistake.
Basically you do exactly like "incher & myfriends410" explained. Don told me that I would continually have to do this cleaning remedy about every 20-30 rounds to maintain the accuracy. Same goes for the balistic tip http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Ballistic-Tip.aspx . His remedy for me was to switch to the partition http://www.nosler.com/bullets/partition.aspx which as explained is a flat non boattail design, requiring less maintainence. The way he explained it, it would not decrease the accuracy that much.

So at this point I'm on the fence as to which round to go with going forward. Myfriends410, after how many rounds do you find yourself needing to clean your rifle?

This has been a huge learning experience for me and I thank all of you for your advice.

[DirtyDave]

The other guys beat me to it, But I was going to say it was copper fouling. If you are not getting BLUE GUNK coming out of your barrel when you are cleaning it, you are not getting the copper out. I clean my 30-06 every 10 rounds. If I shoot more than 10 rounds the accuracy starts to go away.

[J.O.]

I just ran by Fowlers gun room in orange to pick up the sweets cleaner. While there I asked them about cleaning intervals. They told me I need to clean every 10 rounds regardless if I see accuracy changes or not.

[myfriendis410]

I probably clean every 30-40 rounds in that rifle. I have another rifle that is relatively indifferent to frequent cleaning. It's a 700 Remington LSS in .300 w.m. I attribute that mainly to different surface finish of the barrel interior. I have heard that Rugers are pretty rough and take some shooting to smooth out. If your rifle is new, that certainly could account for it.

I would probably recommend every 25 rounds or so on average, shooting a gilding metal bullet. If shooting copper (like me) you might need to increase the frequency of your cleaning regimen. I like the CR10, and the Sweet's 7.62 is supposed to be good. I've also used Butch's Bore Shine, but it isn't nearly as aggressive as the Barnes cleaner. That stuff is NASTY. The instructions are very clear about not leaving it in the bore too long, and following up with a light oil and a dry patch. Hoppe's is a powder solvent and is more appropriately used in a rimfire.

Let us know what you find out.

[J.O.]

Did the cleaning cleaning tonight. Took me 2 hours 50min. I took a few cellphone photos thought I would share. Next stop the range. I check back after that.

First pull definitely had the blue/green just like you guys said.
.1.jpg
The way I setup. Oh and I finally read the cleaning directions. I didn't know you were supposed to clean from the action to the muzzle. Learning as I go
3.jpg



2.jpg
The cover on the scope is a excalibur scope cover for crossbows. I sewed the cover so to contour the side focus knob. Normally it allot tighter to the scope but I had it apart for cleaning. I use wire twisties to suck it tight. Started with this http://www.cabelas.com/crossbow-acce...-cover-2.shtml

4.jpg

[myfriendis410]

If you've been cleaning from the muzzle there might be some damage to the crown. If your groups don't come in, you might consider having it looked at or maybe redone. A bad crown can affect different bullets differently based on how the bullet/flame front exit the barrel. If, for example, a boattail bullet is exiting the muzzle and the crown is damaged; a gas jet could cause the bullet to preferentially yaw as it loses contact with the barrel.

Always clean from the breech when possible. If you can't; use a bore guide off the muzzle. (Think lever action)

[J.O.]

I was worried about that after I found out as well. I took a flashlight and magnifine glass and I don't see any marks. Just a clean barrel. I've been pretty carefull when doing it not to touch. Slow and steady. Thats probably why it took me so long.

I looked up the barrel guide. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=685691 Think I'm going to get this kit. Which one are you guys using? Any recommendations? I assume they all do basically the same thing. I'm gonna stop by fowlers again today. Gives me another excuse to go in there.

[inchr48]

While you're shopping, check out the coated cleaning rods (like Dewey). I no longer use the brass rods for cleaning. A bore snake in the field, and a coated rod on the cleaning bench.

[#1Predator]

I'm working part-time at a gun shop and we have a few people bringing their rifles in for "inaccuracy" problems (why do they always wait until the week before deer season??????). The first thing we do is check all of the base and ring screws on the scope mount. 80-90% of the time a screw has loosened up just enough to throw things off. If that doesn't do it, we give it a thorough cleaning. (I clean my rifles after about 50 rds when possible. If not possible, I try to run a BoreSnake through the barrel...not good but better than nothing). At the shop, I follow the same cleaning procedure I use for my rifles. One piece carbon fiber or coated cleaning rod...no aluminum or steel rods.

1) Unload the rifle, remove the bolt, insert the proper sized bore guide (always lube the o-ring before putting the guide into the rifle.)
2) Use a slotted tip on the cleaning rod. Wet the bore with a patch soaked in 5W-20 Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil, 10 passes.
3) Wet a patch with Hoppes No.9 solvent, 10 passes, let set for 5 minutes.
4) Nylon brush, soaked in Hoppes, 20 passes.
5) Dry patch on the correct sized jag. Do this twice using a clean patch each time.
6) Slotted tip with a patch soaked in KG-12 copper solvent. After 5 passes, re-wet the patch and then 5 more passes. Let this set for at least five minutes, 30 minutes for heavy copper fouling (can be left in the bore overnight if necessary).
7) Nylon brush, KG-12, at least 20 passes.
8) Slotted tip, Hoppes, five passes.
9) Jag, dry patch. Five passes, each time with a clean patch. Last patch might have a slight discoloration but should be all most white. If the patches aren't clean enough, re-do the process with longer "soak" times.
10) Lastly, apply a light coating of Mobile 1 to the bore (makes cleaning easier the next time).

Total cleaning time for a light-to-moderately dirty bore is roughly 15 minutes. Very heavy fouling is easily removed after a night of soaking with KG-12. The shop charges $40 for 15 minutes worth of work. Overnight is $80. What a racket!!!!!

KG-12 is a water based solvent and will not harm metal barrels although it will remove some types of metal coatings (Remington TriNyte, "spray paint" coatings, etc.). Patches will not turn blue when using KG-12.

Ammonia-type cleaners will harm metal bores and should never be left in the bore for more than 15 minutes. When using ammonia-based solvents, "blue" patches can indicate the present of copper in the bore but be aware the patches will also turn blue in response to the copper contained in a brass jag or brass slot tip.

Good luck and good hunting.

[J.O.]

http://www.deweyrods.com/

[#1Predator]

Dewey makes good products. Looks like a winner.

This is a great bore guide. You'll need a #5.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=594165

I've never had a problem with these rods.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=165130

[J.O.]

Well I made my way back to the range yesterday. Had some decently cool temps all day. During my shooting I waited 3min between rounds to let the barrel cool. Put 9 rounds of the federal power shok down on paper and was pleasantly surprised to find 1/2-1" groups once tuned in. I was stoked with those results. So I moved on to the federal nosler accubonds and put 11 rounds down on paper. Finally getting it dialed back in to 1/4"-1/2" groups.Looks like the cleaning did the job. I think I'm going to stick to a cleaning regiment of 25 rounds (copper) and clean. Hopefully I'll never run into this issue again.

Thank you to all that helped out! I am confident of where the rifle will land and feel great about my upcoming season.

[Mel Carter]

Not to hijack your thread, but in my Winchester model 70 I have never cleaned for copper and I have had this gun over 20 years. Never an accuracy issue, been shooting partitions the entire time, but now i'm shooting the TSX. So, now you guys got me thinking I need to do a good cleaning. I just got a Tikka that I'm shooting the accubonds out of, I have shot 3 boxes through it. Sounds like everyone has been doing this cleaning, guess I should start.

[ltdann]

Yeah Mel, its one of the drawbacks of the lead free stuff, it leaves a copper residue. There a a number of brands out there for copper buildup. See Above. I've been using Sweets 7.62 on my Tikka with good results, but which ever you choice, be sure do read the directions in regards to how much time to leave the stuff in the barrel. Some of it can damage the metal.

[J.O.]

Not to hijack your thread, but in my Winchester model 70 I have never cleaned for copper and I have had this gun over 20 years. Never an accuracy issue, been shooting partitions the entire time, but now i'm shooting the TSX. So, now you guys got me thinking I need to do a good cleaning. I just got a Tikka that I'm shooting the accubonds out of, I have shot 3 boxes through it. Sounds like everyone has been doing this cleaning, guess I should start.

Not hi jacking at all. The more the better. The whole thing was new to me as well. I originally had no clue about this different cleaning method. It cleared up my problem. My hunting buddy was starting to have accuracy problems with his rem 700 sps in 7mm rem mag shooing hornady 162grn SST as well. After we figured out the issue with mine, we did the cleaning on his. Same exact methods I did on mine and his problem was fixed too. He's now shooting 1/2" groups, where he was shooting 1 1/2"-2". I'm just really grateful everyone chimed in and helped me and him out. I was stumped at what the problem could be.

[J.O.]

I left the sweets in the barrel on my buddies gun and mine for 5min each time I did it.

[myfriendis410]

It's nice to get definitive results immediately. I love it.