30-06 loading

[crustyde]

Loading for a remington 700 3006. Made four loads with 4350. 56, 57, 58, 59 gr under 165gr sbt. Groups were 2.5" to 6" the 58 gr being the best, 59 the worst. I also shot some factory ammo with a group of 1.5/5 shots. I know every rifle is different, so what is a good way to determine seating depth and could that have been my problem? I have tried seating a bullet into a spent case and then putting it into the rifle but i do not think i am doing it right. Either the bullet gets stuck or it comes out but i can not see where it has contacted the rifling. The action on this gun is stiff and difficult for me to feel when i have reached a point where the bullet is compressed. Any ideas would be appreciated.Can the bullet type affect accuracy that much? I am hoping for some ideas to close it down a bit at least to shot comparably with the factory ammo, then tweek it further to. Also what is a good way to determine the length of a case for a specific rifle.

User error is not out of the question either. Though i tend to keep factory ammo at 2" or under off a bench. I was felling comfortable at the range that day.
Regards

[myfriendis410]

I don't know how knowledgeable you are about the basics of reloading, so please don't be offended if I hit a nerve.

Here are a couple of fundamentals for you to observe when loading for rifle. I feel these are absolutely essential to producing accurate and repeatable handloads.

1-Use the same headstamp. Do not mix your brass. Case volumes vary from maker to maker and can greatly affect accuracy.
2-Trim your brass. Uneven neck tension will affect pressure, affecting accuracy.
3-Use a quality primer. I use Federal benchrest primers, but CCI makes an excellent one too.
4-Hand weigh your powder charge.
5-Seat to recommended depth until you find something that begins to group.
6-Keep detailed notes. I log the load on the target and keep it in a notebook with the date. Bad groups are just as important to allow you to not repeat that load years later.
7-Use different powders and bullets. IMR 4350 is a good one, but so is RL19, and IMR 7828, and H414 as well as many others. Try a lighter and a heavier bullet. Maybe your rifle likes a 180 gr. bullet. Maybe it prefers a 150. You have to feed your rifle what it wants.

You need to find out why your Remington action is stiff. A 700 should have a butter smooth bolt cycle. If it doesn't it needs to be looked at. I've seen two that were used without lubrication and the bolt lugs were galled. This needs attention immediately! Otherwise you risk ruining the rifle. If the bolt works smoothly without a loaded round in but is stiff when loaded; that is a sure sign the brass has not been resized enough.

Get a trigger job. This is the single best accuracy job money can buy. There are other things you can do as well. Float the barrel. Glass bed the stock. Put quality glass on it. Etc.

[crustyde]

I don't know how knowledgeable you are about the basics of reloading, so please don't be offended if I hit a nerve. Nerves are good. That was my first batch of rifle ammunition. I only know what has been read and little of it has been applied.

Here are a couple of fundamentals for you to observe when loading for rifle. I feel these are absolutely essential to producing accurate and repeatable handloads.

1-Use the same headstamp. Do not mix your brass. Case volumes vary from maker to maker and can greatly affect accuracy. Thanks for explaining not only what to do, but why it is done. Gives a far better understanding.
2-Trim your brass. Uneven neck tension will affect pressure, affecting accuracy. Not doing this but when the right pilot comes I will start. Right now i just measure to be sure it is under the max.
3-Use a quality primer. I use Federal benchrest primers, but CCI makes an excellent one too. Using CCI 200
4-Hand weigh your powder charge. Done
5-Seat to recommended depth until you find something that begins to group. Do you mean until a grouped bullet and powder combo is found?
6-Keep detailed notes. I log the load on the target and keep it in a notebook with the date. Bad groups are just as important to allow you to not repeat that load years later. Done
7-Use different powders and bullets. IMR 4350 is a good one, but so is RL19, and IMR 7828, and H414 as well as many others. Try a lighter and a heavier bullet. Maybe your rifle likes a 180 gr. bullet. Maybe it prefers a 150. You have to feed your rifle what it wants. I have sierra 5th addition and speer 11. The speer has limited info on 7828 and h414 and none on rl19. Do you have go to manual you prefer?

You need to find out why your Remington action is stiff. A 700 should have a butter smooth bolt cycle. If it doesn't it needs to be looked at. I've seen two that were used without lubrication and the bolt lugs were galled. This needs attention immediately! Otherwise you risk ruining the rifle. If the bolt works smoothly without a loaded round in but is stiff when loaded; that is a sure sign the brass has not been resized enough. It is like butter but when i lock it more pressure is required. I tried seating a very loose bullet in hopes it would push the bullet back to a favored position but that did not work either. The bullet did not get stuck but it also did not push it back into the case. It came out the same length it went in.

Get a trigger job. This is the single best accuracy job money can buy. There are other things you can do as well. Float the barrel. Glass bed the stock. Put quality glass on it. Etc. Can u elaberate on floating the barrel and glass bed? Otherwise i can look it up. Thanks for all your advice. I am open to any and all info you are willing to provide.

[Val]

Many 30-06 rifles like the basic load of 57grains of IMR 4350 with 165 grain SPIRE pont bullets. You stated you used 165 grain sbt. bullets and I'm not sure what those are. The type and weight of the bullets used definitely affect the groupings. You may want to try some high BC spire points like the Hornady SST or the Nosler Ballistic Tips. When I develop a load I first load up different powder weights in .5 grain increments. I'll usually try several different powders until I determine the powder and powder charge that gives me the smallest three shot group. I use three shot groups because I load for hunting and not benchrest shooting. When I get the smallest group with a certain powder and powder charge I then play with the seating depth if necessary. Iincrease the seating depth from the nonminal Overall cartridge length as called out in the reloading manual in 10thousands increments. Remeber many hunting rifles are limited in cartidge lenth by the size of the magazine.

[crustyde]

spire boattail. i shoot 5 shots because i am a crappy shot and i need to take fliers out of the equation.

[Mr. Luckypants]

The right to way do it:

You'll need this -> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=570611

and this -> http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=761522


The poor man's wayis to do what you've mentioned. Lightly seat the bullet and shove it in. Keep doing this until you barely see the markings on the bullet from the lands. Once you see this you are 10 thousand into the lands. Roughly...


If you only plan on hunting at say 200yds or less then none of this really makes a big difference but it's always fun to shoot small groups. :)

[crustyde]

you hit the nail on the head. I have never shot a deer or at one beyond 60 yards (25-30 deer.) Never had the importunity to shoot anything further. But it sure is fun to shoot small groups. It is like golfing for me and those who play golf understand what a mother$#@! it is.

[myfriendis410]

Val gave you some good follow up advice. You may not be able to touch the lands of your barrel due to excessive freebore. I have seen a few rifles (including one of mine) that has 3/4 inch of freebore to keep pressures down. This does not help accuracy!

I am compelled to shoot copper out here (Condor zone) and as a result I have the Nosler and Barnes reloading guides. My personal favorite one is the Sierra. Lots of good info in there for the new reloader. Don't hesitate to go to the Hodgdon website and the Alliant website for load data. They do a pretty good job there.

You should pull the bolt and look closely at the bolt lugs to see if there is metal moved around on them. I'm betting there is. The bolt should be lubricated with a quality lube. A light application of STP oil treatment is great. Some prefer a light oil but I like my lubrication to stay in one place. Dry film lubes work well too, but you will need to clean up the bolt lugs if there is galling on them.

Glass bedding a stock to the action is a process where special non shrinking epoxy is applied to the stock around the front recoil lug of your gun and the barreled action put back into the stock to cure (after mold release is liberally applied to the metal). The barreled action is removed from the stock and all mold release is removed and cleaned up before reassembly. Floating refers to removing material in the forestock to create a slight gap down the length of the barrel to allow for expansion and movement of the stock without applying any adverse pressure to said barrel.

Three shot groups for a hunting rifle is the norm. If you are a lousy shot, you need to develop a technique that takes the shooter out of the equation as much as possible. I use my own sandbags and am extremely careful when shooting from the bench. If you can't hold on the target it's a waste of time trying to develop an accurate load. You HAVE to be locked down and steady. One doesn't "throw out" a shot round unless it's a "called flyer". Once you find a load that shows signs of grouping you can play with the parameters to improve the group. Also; one good group from a load doesn't necessarily mean you've FOUND an accurate load. Several groups over a number of days is a wise idea.

I forgot to mention cleanliness. If you have a fouled barrel, accuracy will suffer. I would suggest Sweet's 7.62 cleaner or the Barnes CR10 (which I use). Copper fouling can be tough to remove and will adversely affect accuracy.

Case trim should be to .003" over the manual's "trim to" length. This has seemed to be the sweet spot for most rifles.

[crustyde]

so talked to my father in law some about this rifle, and he said it does not like boat tails. so, i picked up some hornady 150gr sp for a screaming deal. I am trying to find load data and have noticed suggestions to use a slower burning powder for 150 gr. What is your take on that and do you have a pet powder for slower loads?

[myfriendis410]

I wouldn't necessarily discount a boattail design. It depends on the bullet. As to powders; RL19, H414, IMR4895, IMR4064, IMR4350 are all good choices. It is really up to the rifle to decide on the best powder. I've loaded H4831 in my -06 but it's generally considered a bit slow for that cartridge.

[Americal]

Consistency is the magic to accurate loads. Admittedly I'm a little anal about my reloading, I keep refining a load until it'll stay under 3/4" day-in, day-out for 5 shot groups. I turn the necks, cut the primer pockets and flash holes, trim to length and then weight group my brass for the load development. By my records this typically cuts the group size by about 50% over random grabbed brass. As to seating depth the best process I've found is as follows.

1. Full length size a case.
2. Take a razor saw and slice the down neck slightly into the shoulder axially. This will provide enough tension to keep the bullet in place when you cycle the action.
3. Slide the bullet you're going to load slightly into the case. All ogives are a little different so you'll have to do this with each bullet type you load.
4. Run the action with the dummy round and carefully eject it.
5. Measure O.L. of the dummy with a caliper. Set your seating die to seat the loaded rounds a little shorter than the dummy. Most of my rifles seem to shoot the tightest groups with the bullets about .002" off the lands. If you don't have a caliper put the dummy in your seating die and CAREFULLY turn the seating screw down until it just contacts the bullet; about a half turn more is usually pretty close to .003" clearance.
The only thing that can screw you up on this is freebore and magazine length. If your rifle has a lot of freebore the mag may not be long enough to take the long cartridge. And bullet type can have an effect on accuracy. My experience is older, worn barrels shoot longer bullets with more bearing surface better. I don't think the longer bullet has as much opportunity to wobble in the eroded throat area. A friend of mine had a Rem 788 .308 with a pretty worn barrel, it wouldn't shoot 150's for beans but it did just fine with 180 gr. Sierras FBSP's. He has since had it rebarreled and it shoots everything again.

Good luck.
Tom

[crustyde]

Thanks for all the great advice, but i need more. Just picked up a couple more powders today and one happens to be h414. The speer book notes the use of a mag primer. When at the counter earlier they had an open hornady book i glanced at and it did not note the use of mag primer. Hodgdons has win. lr stated. I use CCI 200. Is a mag necessary?

[Mr. Luckypants]

What are you trying to accomplish? Just curious...

One thing I've learned is when I add something to the equation to try and "improve" my accurracy, I tend to spend way too much money and time for little gains if any. What I do is try and perfect my current loads to the point where I know it cannot do any better then I add something else to the equation (ie different powder, primers, bullets). Also, there is a point where your "perfected" ammo and factory rifle will group, and no matter what you do it will NOT get any better.

You'll need to know this before adding anything else to your experiment. Also, I hope you are aware that excellent groups at 100yds will not translate to excellent or even good groups at say 300yds.

A mag primer is generally used for large volume cases that holds A LOT of slow burning powders. This ensures all the powders will be burned during firing (hopefully before the bullet exit the barrel). Will this work in your case? Only time and money will tell. :)

[crustyde]

My original goal was to reload for a 44 to improve my skills and not break the bank at the same time. In the process, it appears I have acquired a new hobby. Part of the enjoyment for me is trying new things. After going through a pound of powder in the last two weeks I decided to get a couple different types for the enjoyment of experimentation. One of them is H414 I have two manuals. One has data on this powder and the other does not. The one that does recommends a mag primer specifically for the 30-06 case. I noticed at a glance another manual did not have notations for the primer type, but it was a glance while making a transaction and could easily have been an oversight. Since I am new to reloading, I am asking for advice from those with more knowledge how critical it is to have a magnum primer in a 30-06 with h414. I am not a competition shooter, nor have I shot at or plan to shoot 300 yards, at this time. The range I shoot at is only 100yds. Thanks to the advice provided so far I have dramatically increased the accuracy with zero modifications to a very old hunting rifle that has seen the worst. Below is a picture of two groups one before this discussion and one afterwards. The only difference is the cases care recommended by posters.IMG00452-20110905-2047.jpg

[Americal]

For a tinkerer reloading just may be the ultimate hobby. Half of my internet bookmarks are reloading related.
As to the primer issue, magnum primers have been long suggested with ball powders like H414, H335, BL-C(2)... This is because the coating on them (a burning rate modifier )made them harder to initiate. I'm doing some testing right now to satisfy my own curiosity. I'm not going to tell you to disregard published loading data. Handloader Magazine a couple years ago published an article varying components (brass, bullet, primer, etc. )in an extended test in a .308 of proven accuracy with some real interesting results. The article was pretty long but appropriate to this the CCI 250, mag large rifle, shot smaller groups than anything else even match primers, YMMV. A good source of data is the powder manufacturers, H414; Hodgden http://www.hodgdon.com/.

Tom

[myfriendis410]

Also; the ww primer is for standard AND magnum loads, if I remember correctly. Ball type powders generally require a longer, hotter flame to get consistent burn which of course translates into less pressure variation and consequently better accuracy (in theory). It certainly is one of the variables to play with and part of the whole "tinkering" deal. I shoot magnum primers in non-magnum cartridges during load development and am careful of my pressure signs as I go. Personally I find the Federal Match and Magnum Match to be the best overall, but I've seen exceptions.

Work with one headstamp. Weigh your cases. Uniform them (trim, deburr, etc.). Seat primers to a uniform depth. Find the bullet sweet spot. Some like quite a jump and some rifles won't allow anything else. I have one like that and I was still able to get it to shoot 3/8" groups repeatably. It has a 3/4" freebore.

[bigshot]

My two favorite 30-06 loads with a Remington 700 are the following: IMR4350-59 grains, 150grn Nosler Accubonds, Federal 210 Gold Medal Match primers, Federal cases, AOL 3.298. second load is IMR4350 56 grains, with 180 grain Nosler Accubonds, Fed. 210 G.M. Match primers. Good luck. These are maximum loads in most books, so work up to them.

Almost forgot to mention the two loads above grouped three shots well under an inch at 100 yards with my rifle.