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Thread: 325 wsm vs 300 wsm

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    Were meeting up with Shay for an Elk hunt later this year, I'm thinking about a new elk rifle (I buy a new rifle for every occasion, including visits from the mother inlaw) and what chamber I want.

    The 325 and 300 wsm ballistics both look great and if someone owns a rifle and reloads either caliber I would like their opinions.
    Unlike the 300 wsm, only a few gun makers chamber in the 325 wsm.

    The rifle will be used for elk, caribou and possibly bear.

    I have a weatherby Mark V deluxe in 300 weatherby mag but the wood is unbelievable. It's the nicest wood I've ever seen on a rifle and it doesn't have handeling marks. After owning it for a year I decided not to hunt with it for fear of scratching it. That's why I only buy synthetic rifles for hunting.

    Where can I find a recoil chart for .325 wsm?

    Rich

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    Rich, I have an A-bolt in .325wsm. With the Boss and a recoil pad, it's easier to shoot than my 30-06 (Savage 110).

    I'm handloading 200gr TSX for it now, but haven't bothered with a chrony or anything. At the range last week it put three groups inside 2". Best group had three holes just about touching... second and third groups piled on top of that. I absolutely LOVE this rifle.

    I picked the .325 sorta because I thought it was a pretty cool offering. .300win mag trajectory with .338 knockdown... and very reasonable recoil. I had no need for it at all, but figured it'd be a great elk gun and I could use it on hogs in between elk hunts without feeling guilty. I'd use it for deer, but it sure seems a little excessive, and I still love my 30-06.

    Biggest problem is the WSMs may be doomed because of this lawsuit over the patent. That's why you're not seeing it offered from most gun makers anymore. I can't remember the fella's name, but he's basically holding the gunmakers ransom if they wanna use the designation, they have to pay a royalty. So they're not chambering in WSMs. Instead, they're making all these proprietary short-fats, like the .375 Ruger, the .338 Federal, and the .30TC.

    From the looks of things right now, the only WSMs you'll be seeing on the market in a few years will be the .270wsm and the .300wsm. Others, including the .325, will likely fade away.

    If you handload, no worries. But if you need factory ammo, or if you're one of those folks who tends to forget his bullets on a road trip... it may not be a great choice.

    Hope to hear better news about this at the SHOT Show this weekend, but I don't think it's gonna change course.
    He has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct... Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
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    I load .300 wsm for my hog hunting partner (when he isn't shooting his dinky .270--Hi Steve!) and the only complaint I have with it is that you can't load a 200 gr. bullet. This is unfortunate because I feel that is the PERFECT bullet weight for a magnum .30 caliber. You might consider buying a Weatherby Vanguard + or a sub-M.O.A. in .300 wby magnum. Then you don't have another cartridge on the shelf.

    Case life should be higher with the short magnums than any belted magnum, but this hasn't been an issue for me using my 7mm rem mag or .300 win mag. I'm not trying to get 20 loads out of one piece of brass.

    I don't have any experience with the .325 wsm but if there is a patent lawsuit I would stay away from it.

    Have fun!
    "The Sharps made the west safe for Winchesters."

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    I googled this and found this article:

    The Death of Short Magnums?

    By Randy Wakeman



    As covered extensively by Chuck Hawks throughout Guns & Shooting Online, the many "Short Magnums" that have proliferated are hardly new at all, and many create more problems than they claim to solve. The general hunting and shooting "benefits" are dubious at best.

    As reported by retailer surveys, the short magnum genre has failed to capture the hoped for sales, with the future of several "short" and "short-short" magnums currently in jeopardy. Added to the mess is a situation reported by several sources around the time of the SHOT Show.

    The Outdoor Wire of February 2, 2006, reported a situation of well-known gun writer Rick Jamison (John R. Jamison) which reads, in part:

    "Jamison's offering a legal settlement in avoidance of a lawsuit. According to these letters, Winchester purloined Jamison's intellectual property in their short magnums. He sued, winning a decision in a Missouri court (his state of residence). Winchester, the letter states, settled the claim as has fellow short-magnum rifle manufacturer Browning and Olin Winchester ammunition. In the heretofore unreported letters, Jamison is reportedly seeking a monetary "cure" from each manufacturer, in addition to an ongoing royalty for the sale of each rifle in the contested calibers."

    Sources indicate that there was a confidential, out of court settlement. Apparently, the tiff arises from a string of patents issued to Mr. Jamison, the first patent #5,826,361 granted on October 27, 1998 from application #818440 of March 17, 1997.

    Prior art is any body of knowledge that relates to your invention. Prior art would include previous patents, trade journal articles, publications (including data books and catalogs), public discussions, trade shows, or public use or sales anywhere in the world. Another necessity for a patent is novelty or "newness."

    Your invention is not new, as defined by U.S. patent law, if:

    An identical (or too similar) invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before your invention was; or
    Your invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country more than one year prior to your application for a patent in the United States.
    The short magnum concept is quite old. Commercially Roy Weatherby offered them back in the 1940's for his 257, .270 and 7mm Weatherby Magnums. Later, 1964's .350 Remington Magnum was apparently the first "mainstream" short magnum, giving performance equating to 1922's .35 Whelen in a case designed for short actions.

    P.O. Ackley's 1962 Copyrighted Handbook for Shooter and Reloaders, Vol. 1 details a wide spectrum of short magnums. The .30 Howell was built for the old pattern 14 Lee-Enfield; the list continues including the ".30 Short Magnum No. 1 and No 2 by Ackley, the .300 Mashburn Short Magnum, and the .30-.378 Arch. The idea of short magnums and variations are quite obvious to anyone skilled in the art, as well you would think with a production short magnum readily available from Remington over 40 years ago.

    You would think that the owner of the Winchester name, Olin Corporation, with annual sales exceeding that of all the firearms and ammunition in the United States (some $3.4 Billion), would save themselves the embarrassment by doing their homework. What they actually did or did not do remains a mystery.

    More to the point, the non-belted, non-rebated rim short magnum has been in commercial production since well before the first of the several continued and linked Jamison patents were so much as applied for.

    John Lazzeroni's "Patriot" is a non-rebated rim, beltless short magnum designed to work in short actions. After wading through the claims, my opinion is that the Lazzeroni Patriot embodies every single claim in the elongated, legalese-filled patent string.

    Holt Boddington wrote in Guns Magazine:

    "In 1995, I started hunting with the commercial cartridge that really started the short magnum ball rolling--John Lazzeroni's 7.82 (.308) Patriot. In fact, the New Mexico mule deer I took that fall was the first head of big game ever taken with the Patriot. With an overall case length of 2.050 inches, a 30-degree shoulder, and a head size of .580 inch, the Patriot looks ever so much like a blown-out PPC case formed on a 416 Rigby body.

    The Patriot ranks as the hottest .30-caliber shorty going and easily pushes a 180-grain bullet along at 3,184 fps. Building on the success of the Patriot, Lazzeroni has expanded his short magnum line to include the .243, 6.5mm, 7mm, .338, and .416 calibers. In terms of sheer velocity and performance, the Lazzeroni short magnums lead the pack."

    The Lazzeroni Patriot not only existed, but was successfully being hunted with long before any Jamison patent application was filed. You would think that things could be invented only once? I always thought so. Someone is greatly confused. Perhaps the parties with standing can figure it out, before more people discover the super short magnums aren't so super.

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    Ahh, Jamison. That was his name.

    Yeah, I read Randy's article quite a while ago, when it first came out. There's been a good bit of discussion about this on several sites.

    I think the "death" of the short mags is overstating it a bit. As I mentioned, I think the .270 and .300 wsm are both gonna do fine for a very long time. The rest are probably goners, though.

    For the most part, the short-fats aren't all that awesome anyway. Most of them do nothing that the standard rounds don't offer... to me, the .325 was an exception to this as it offered the big gun performance of the .338 without killing the shooter.

    But there ya go... lots of good calibers have come and gone. But as long as I can find the bullets and my cases last, I'll keep using it.
    He has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct... Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
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    Ironworker,
    I know you were interested in the H-S Percision,my buddy bought one a couple years ago in the 325WSM.Man is this a "Shooter",I shot this gun at 300yds and it grouped great and the recoil wasn't what I was expecting(no muzzlebreak),from such a light gun.I am really considering this as my next purchase,the only negative was ,if you had something close to the mag release,on recoil the clip would drop out.But I think they may have fixed that problem.On performance,he took it to Africa and one shot killed all his animals,including a huge Eland bull.There's not alot of bullet choice's,but you can tell H-S what you want to shoot and the gun will be dialed in when shipped to dealer.He sent them a scope and they mounted it and dialed it in with the factory loads.....range ready...
    It was a pricey purchase,but a hell of a shooter.....and it took some time to get(custom ordered)....

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    Duck, I've had the H&S for about a month now and it's the sweetest gun in my cabinet.
    If you buy one you wont be sorry. Worth every pennt in my opinion. I have a Jim Borden rifle on order as well... the wait for his rifles are three times longer than the H&S and about three times expensive.

    I plan on ordering a Lazzeroni next year, I think the wait on his rifles is around two years right now.

    Rich

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    So Speck...Let's say I know this guy in Kansas that has a Browning .243 WSSM that he likes to antelope hunt with....

    Do you think I should tell him to stock up on factory ammo since he doesn't reload? Or is the WSSM ammo not included in this lawsuit?

    I'd hate to have to....I mean...he'd hate to have to start reloading because it isn't available anymore...

    Any advice I can tell him?
    When I was a kid I was told anyone could be president.... now I believe it.

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    He should not only stock up, but he should probably also learn to relaod for it.

    WSSM is also included, and you may notice there are less options available from the normal factory sources.

    By the way, this is one of the topics I'll be exploring at SHOT this year. I'd love to come back with good news for WSM and WSSM owners.
    He has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct... Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
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    I decided to buy the Remington .300 ultra mag. Now I just need to find a supplier with brass in stock. If worse comes to worse, I will buy a few boxes of ammunition and reload that brass.

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    Check out the Nosler website; they stock their own brass and their seconds are a great value. I load .300 win. mag. and that's the only headstamp I have for that caliber. Very consistent.
    "The Sharps made the west safe for Winchesters."

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    "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
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    Ironworker...let us know how you like that 300RUM, i'm close to buying one from Remington. Which branch/model did you get?

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    If you roll your own, you may find that the death of the short or ultra's may not be too far off.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/brows...**670***9013***

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    Short mags; solving a problem that did not exist.

    I do like the .270 short mag: very accurate cartridge, long case life, loads well, shoots well, and hits pretty hard. One of my friends has been shooting a Black Shadow for several years and has killed a bunch of hogs with it. Lots of bullet choices and is also pretty economical on the powder. If I did not have a 7mm RM I would think about that cartridge if for no other reason than to get rid of the archaic cordite belt around the stupid case.
    "The Sharps made the west safe for Winchesters."

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    All modern calibers are solving a problem that never existed... and people say that about every new thing that comes down the pike.

    By the way, speaking to folks at Winchester, Browning, and Kimber this past weekend, they would not admit to any plans to drop the WSMs from the line-up. It's just gonna be tough to find ammo for them.
    He has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct... Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.
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    Yeah. I'm with ya. The belted case is old but it is proven. And you've got to admit the look of a 375 or 300 H and H brings you right back for them. Roy Weatherby liked it and look what he developed. Lazzeroni was and is on the right track but priced the working class right out of that genre.

    RCBS and other die makers might be the way out for those who want to manufacture their own cases. It's not hard.
    Been there done that just to keep my 7x61 S and H alive.

    I noticed the Remington SPS is being offered in everything but the 325. The 300 WSM and RUM will hold their ground.
    I think.

    They offer alot of perfomance with less powder, and recoil. But it appears that it will cost you.

    I'll stick with my 06.

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    I'd personally use Remington or Win brass for reloading the RUM, but you bought a great rifle again... Sendero?

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    Somebody answer me this.

    What is the "parent" case that the WSM and RUM are based off of.

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    404 Jeffery is what the RUM is based off of... actually for the WSM and RSAUM...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.404_Jeffery

    Some common commercial children of the .404 Jeffery case are the Remington Ultra Magnum (RUM) cartridge family, as well as the Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) cartridge family, which in turned spawned the Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum (RSAUM) cartridges and the Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM) families. Both the Winchester and Remington cartridges have also spawned many current wildcats.

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    The 270 WSM is my favorite cartridge. I think you can make an argument for the need of the 270 wsm. It hits harder, fly's flatter and faster than the win. I have both 270win and wsm and prefer the wsm. Matter of fact, my new Borden will be chambered in 270 wsm. That will be three rifles chambered in 270.

    Arrowslinger; the 300 RUM is the 700 CDL classic deluxe. I mounted a new Nikon Monarch 30mm 2.5x10x56 with BDC on top. With a 26" barrel, the rifle is surprising long. It's not as heavy as my Weatherby deluxe but it's running a close second.
    I wouldn't buy the 300 RUM in the SF or other lite configurations. One look at the 300 RUM cartridge and you know the lighter riflesa would almost be unbearable to shoot.

    My local gun shop didn't stock the power level ammunition so I bought a box of the 180gr siriocco.
    I got home and opened the box and noticed the ugly brass, the brass was dirty looking with ripples near the case mouth and small indentations. The ammo looked like bad reloades.
    I went online looking for brass to reload and didn't find anything but Remington in stock. I'm scared to buy the remington brass now.....

    If I can find some Norma brass I would get a bag of 1000. That one bag would last me a lifetime of reloading for this particular gun.
    I know guy's say that Norma brass is too expensive but I think you can reload it more times than other brands.

    I'm going to the range sometime this week. Arrowslinger, I will let you know how I like it.

    Rich

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    I did some searching and found Nosler brass for the 300 RUM. Prices were around $58 for 50 pcs.
    Damn that's an expensive cambering!

    I also found Conley precision cartridge company (click), they seem to sell match hunting ammo and very decent prices. Matter of fact, thier prices are cheaper than name brand loads.

    What's the 411 with Conley?

    Rich

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    I spent the afternoon at the range on Sunday. It was the warmest day in a very long time. Of course the range was packed in fact the only shooting stations left when I arrived were in the sun.

    Arrowslinger: the 300 RUM is one hell of a gun. I was shooting Remington's 180 gr. Siroccos. The recoil wasn't as bad as i thought it would be. Very similar to my Weatherby 300 mag. Both will leave you with a sore shoulder before you can finish a box of shells.
    I did wear an extra Carhart vest when shooting the RUM, I had four other rifles I wanted to shoot and didn't want to blow out my shoulder.
    The groups were about 2" @ 100 yards. With some practice I'm sure i could get that smaller.

    This was my very first attempt at reloading and my son and I both shot reloads and factory ammo. Since I loaded to the factory specs of ammo we were using the were almost identical in grouping.

    We did have problems however, the warm sun didn't allow the rifles to cool down properly between rounds. The 300 RUM uses a lot of powder and the barrel gets extremley hot after only three rounds.
    We had fun watching guys continually fire round after round in their rifle wondering why they were having trouble hitting the target. They would adjust the knobs on their scopes, up down left right! Funny as hell. Never once did they check the barrel for heat.

    I plan on going back later tonight just before they close to dial in the 300 RUM a little further.

    If your contemplating buying the 300 RUM for anything other than big game (Elk, Bear, moose) I would look at buying the 300 wsm. The RUM is not a rifle for those with tendencies to flinch on other calibers.


    Rich

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
    We did have problems however, the warm sun didn&#39;t allow the rifles to cool down properly between rounds. The 300 RUM uses a lot of powder and the barrel gets extremley hot after only three rounds[/b]
    Hose &#39;em off and when the barrel stops steamin&#39;, commence to shootin&#39; again.
    I know you can&#39;t eat the horns but the meat on the wall looks terrible and after a while it begins to smell.

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    I&#39;ll get right on that

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    I bought a Sako 85 hunter in 300 WSM, comparing it to the 300 RUM it&#39;s more accurate. It could be that the remmy didn&#39;t like the paticular load I was using, even though it was a remmington cartridge. Using a 180 nosler in the 300 WSM and the 180 grain Sicrocco in the RUM, the WSM had more recoil.
    I&#39;m not sure if I was holding the rifle incorrectly or what but the 300 WSM left my shoulder sore for almost a week. I was shooting just with a T-shirt and they may have something to do with it.
    To think, the 270 wsm is just a necked down 300 wsm makes you think about the power behind a little 270 bullet.

    No comparison over the quality of the two rifles, Sako beats the Remmy hands down.
    There still not a lot of ammo availible for the RUM so I bought a bunch of brass to load up my own. Just a few thoughts about the two loads.


    Rich

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    The only thing you lose is the ability to shoot a heavy bullet. The thing you gain is burning way less powder to do it. You made a great choice, but I still prefer my model 700 LSS in .300 WM. AND it&#39;s American made.
    "The Sharps made the west safe for Winchesters."

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