NON-LEAD AMMO PROPOSED IN CONDOR RANGE BY DFG

[spectr17]

NON-LEAD AMMO PROPOSED IN CONDOR RANGE:

The Department of Fish and Game has proposed to the Fish and Game Commission that big game hunters be required to use non-lead hunting ammunition in the areas currently occurpied by California condors. The regulation would affect deer, tule elk, wild hog, bear, and pronghorn hunters who pursue game in the D9, D10, D11, and D13 zones along with the south unit A zone. The regulation is designed to protect California condors from lead poisoning.

The regulation would not affect the use of shotgun ammunition for birds or rimfire ammunition for small game and varmints in this area.

The first of two Fish and Game discussion hearings on this issue will be held March 2 in Arcata followed by April 16 in Bodega Bay. The final mammal hunting regulations will be adopted at April 25 via teleconference. Comments on the proposed changes can be e-mailed to the commission at fgc@fgc.ca.gov or sent in writing to California Fish and Game Commission, 1416 Ninth St., Sacramento, CA 95814.

[CaliJeephuntr]

Again? Seems like this comes up every year.

[hatchet1]

dang!!! and i just bought a case of federal premiums for the .270

[SacFireJT]

[billrob]

I see a catch 22 coming
The State DFG may soon require unleaded but Federal Regulations state clearly lead core only.
They have a flyer recommending unleaded but actually haven't changed the regs yet. Read the small print on the flyer it's a disclaimer.
I don't know if the National Forests are set up like the National Parks where each park superintendent can set their own agenda.
Remember Trust but Verify.

[Speckmisser]

What federal regulations are you talking about, BillRob? Not a challenge, just asking for clarification and reference to the appropriate regs.

[180pilot]

How do you get the lead out of a 12 gauge slug, or muzzleloaded bullets, that need the soft metal to deform and fill rifling and swage through chokes? I don't believe Condors would try and swallow a bullet or slug, only fine bird shot within a unretrived bird or rabbit. But DFG is saying rifle bullet fragments also:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/news03/03049.html

I think we can see where this might lead with anti-gun advocates.

[Speckmisser]

So far, Barnes is about the only company out there really hitting this...but they have lead-free options for centerfire rifles, pistols, shotgun slugs, and muzzleloader bullets. Their centerfire and shotgun slugs are being loaded by, among others, Federal Cartridge.

Remington is also using a lead-free alternative (same as Hevi-Shot) for buckshot and slugs.

The other bullet-makers are on notice, and most are either in the process of finding a way around Barnes' patents or at least observing the movement. Only one company representiatve that I interviewed said his company has no intention of jumping onto the non-lead bandwagon. However, given the global movement to lead-free ammo, I think he may have spoken out of turn...so I will not name his company.

[scott0san]

How about requiring hunters to remove the bullet from all big game shot in the field and present the bullet when getting your tag validated? Except where their is an obvious exit wound
I am lucky if I shoot one big game animal a year however I may shoot 100 or more Quail,Dove.Chucker If anything I would rather see the use of steel shot

[evlu]

PMC also loads Barnes, just having trouble finding anyone sell it in the bay area. There $ is lower than Federal.
I've been trying to buy copper since I heard about the issue with the Condors. Was hoping PowerBelt would do something soon for muzzleloaders that don't want to use sabots. Hope it doesn't become mandatory, wish everyone would try and do it on their own.
Just my
evlu

[fishnhunt]

I generally support this change...The change will not be impossible to impliment....Arizona already has some sort of incentive in place for people to not use lead. What I do think is interesting though....All the meetings are in northern cal...far away from where this new law will take effect

[billrob]

Speck,

First here is the flyer link I was speaking about when you go to the link check the small print at the bottom of the flyer.

Lead can be deadly to wildlife even in very small amounts.

Bullet fragments and residue in gut piles, discarded meat and lost game is a major source of lead poisoning for scavenging wildlife. Endangered California condors, golden eagles, bald eagles and many other bird species are extremely vulnerable. Mammal scavengers like coyotes, foxes, badgers and smaller species are also at risk. When lead-contaminated meat is eaten by scavenging wildlife, their digestive tract becomes paralyzed and they starve to death.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/docu..._lead_flyer.pdf

As of November 2006
I was trying to nail it all down.
I spoke with Angeles, San Bernardino and Cleveland National Forests Rangers offices and was told at Angeles and San Bernardino it was strictly lead core ammunition only due to fire concerns. Cleveland said that non lead was ok and preferred.

The websites had the wording stating use of lead core ammunition only as follows:
"Due to the number of cities and communities in and near the National Forest and to prevent wildfires in the forest, only lead core bullets are permitted. Steel core or armor piercing ammunition is not allowed".

now it has been changed to:

Due to the number of cities and communities in and near the National Forest and to prevent wildfires in the forest, discharging a firearm with steel core, armor piercing or Teflon ammunition is not permitted.

The wording in the fire use and restrictions guidelines has been changed to:

Personal Fireworks are always prohibited on the San Bernardino National Forest. Tracer, armor piercing, steel core, and Teflon ammunitions are also prohibited, as is discharging a firearm at any exploding target.

No more lead core only wording to be found.

I'm glad that you inquired because it made me re-trace my steps.

I'll be shooting Barnes now anyway.

[Speckmisser]

Thanks for the info so far, BillRob. Hadn't thought about non-lead being a fire danger, although I don't think the copper ammo (Barnes) is a big sparker... interesting trail of thought.

Also didn't know FailSafe's were considered lead-free. That's good to know, in the event the Barnes don't shoot well for me.

[billrob]

Speck,

I received this from Barnes when I asked them about it on Nov. 1, 2006:

"You know copper is widely used in the powder manufacturing facilities because it doesn't create sparks".

[Rancho Loco]

QUOTE (Speckmisser @ Feb 22 2007, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...in the event the Barnes don't shoot well for me.[/b]

You just get that silly notion out of your head.

[DAYSTALKER]

Thank god, i only bowhunt now!!

[jkvshooter]

Does this mean I can't use lead to shoot condors? Man, next they'll outlaw covering them with BBQ sauce.

[Atwater]

QUOTE

Does this mean I can't use lead to shoot condors? Man, next they'll outlaw covering them with BBQ sauce.[/b]

I am shocked, dismayed, appalled, and downright incensed by these comments!!!!!!

(Everyone knows Condor is best served wrapped in bacon with an orange marmalaid glaze...)

[larrysogla]

Billrob AND Speck,
The involved National Forest Agencies removed the "lead core only" advisement from the fire danger announcements because Barnes 99.99% pure copper bullets do not create the "hot sparks" upon impact with rocks that create the fire danger. The fire danger are with steel core & armor piercing ammo(creates very hot sparks like flint upon impact with rocks), tracer(obvious flame issue with the tracer compound burning at the bullet tail) and teflon(I don't have knowledge on why teflon is a fire danger issue). NOW for your INFORMATION, BE WARNED THAT WINCHESTER FAIL AMMUNITION HAS A STEEL INSERT AT THE BULLET REAR THAT PROTECTS THE LEAD PART AT THE BULLET TAIL FROM FRAGMENTING UPON IMPACT(Fail Safe ammo has a lead core at the bullet rear protected by a STEEL ring insert). The Law Enforcement Agencies will check for steel core ammo by sticking a magnet to your bullet and if the magnet sticks indicating a steel embedded in the bullet you will be cited and I believe in some cities or counties IT IS A F-E-L-O-N-Y TO SHOOT STEEL CORE OR STEEL EMBEDDED AMMO IN FIRE DANGER AREAS(NATIONAL FORESTS OR C-O-U-N-T-Y BRUSH FIRE AREAS).
That being the case, I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM ANY "FAIL SAFE" AMMUNITION AS THEY HAVE A STEEL INSERT AT THE BULLET REAR PROTECTING THE LEAD AT THE REAR OF THE BULLET FROM FRAGMENTING. You never know when you could forget about that steel inset in that Fail Safe ammo and then go hunting in a County brush fire area or a National Forest fire danger area. To be safe from getting cited or going to J-A-I-L just use Barnes 99.99% pure copper ammo. The Barnes Triple Shock bullets are supposed to minimize the copper fouling issue and HOPEFULLY also address the Barnes copper bullet accuracy issue(copper is harder than lead and this hardness resists the rifling in the barrel that engraves the bullet as it passes thru the bore creating copper fouling and accuracy issues). The Barnes Triple grooved all copper bullet is supposed to allow the hard copper to flow into those triple grooves to solve the copper hardness resisting the rifling engraving issue.
DON'T FORGET THAT THE WINCHESTER FAIL SAFE BULLETS WILL MAGNETIZE WITH THOSE MAGNETS THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WILL BE USING TO CHECK STEEL EMBEDDED BULLETS AND IT IS A FELONY IN SOME AREAS TO VIOLATE THOSE FIRE ISSUE ORDINANCES. Can you imagine going to jail because of some ammo in your rifle(or pocket???). Yup, don't say you have NOT been warned.
Also the military .30 Caliber M1 carbine ammo has a steel insert so don't go plinking with your M1 carbine with ANY military ammo eveb in a NON-brush fire ordinance area. Should a brush fire ignite in that area, they could accuse you of starting that brush fire because they caught you plinking with steel insert military M1 Carbine ammo. Hey, even if you are innocent, you have to hire eeeeexpensive lawyers to get you off the hook. 'Nuff said.

[Freedivr2]

A bunch of things come to mind here that I think would make a whole lot more sense than screwing every hunter in the state.

My experience with Lead core Nosler partitions has been this; that a good number of lung shots, the bullet passes right thru the animal. Moreover, a shot to a 160 lb. hog two years ago went right thru it and into the lungs of a pig next to it, dropping both. Bullet kept going, never recovered. I would say that 80% of these bullets I've never been able to recover (and the few bullets I have recovered in the hide, I've taken out of the hide and brought home to show people what a spent bullet looks like) and would rest assurred knowing that no animal ate these projectiles because they weren't in the ponch that was left behind.

I would rather think that there would be some compromise here to appease both groups (conservationists/hunters and preservationists/Condor huggers) that would work. That would be making it illegal to leave any portion of a dispatched animal that a bullet has passed thru, in the field. I think that's a reasonable step in the right direction.

Yeah, that would mean you'd have to bag up your bird carcasses and throw them in a trash can vs. leaving them on the ground behind the tailgate of your truck (a good practice regardless of the law). And yep, you'd have to haul out your deer or hog with the bloodshot meat instead of cutting out the bloodshot meat in the field. And, it would mean that you couldn't whack a coyote and leave him lay on in the field, you'd have to bag em and dump him in a dumpster with a lid (or cut out the bullet or bloodshot portion and bag it up/take it out of the field).

I know this would be very tough law to enforce, but that shouldn't stop it's consideration, and here's why; I believe that if that were a law, there's a lot of excellent people who hunt, who would honor that law, and there would be less Condors found with lead in em. P.S. Not all Condors in the wild die of lead poisoning....like I said, because of their history and ability to reproduce, I'm pretty darn sure they're on the top of mother natures list to become extinct no matter what we do. We can do what we can to prolong that inevitability I suppose. I would bet my house that if they take lead out of bullets, the Condors will in fact find something else to become extinct over. Don't anyone kid themselves that mother nature isn't at work here also......

[MJB]

Well said Free......I agree Condors will do themselves in.

[easymoney]

Thanks, larrysogla, for pointing this out. Be fire safe out there...

Again I'd like to be reminded of how much money has already been spent trying to stave off the inevitable fate regarding condors? And how many birds have grown and survived in the wild, regardless of lead poisoning... It is not many for the amount of time and money wasted.

[180pilot]

Expect to pay a lot more for loaded ammunition, and all copper bullets don't shoot well in some calibers even when hand loaded. Will major manufacturers tool up to make "custom" ammo just for California? This will impact Varmint hunters the most, firing thousands of rounds a year.

[billrob]

larry,
I called the 3 local forests here last season and they specifically told me lead core only.
When I asked about copper 2 foresters told me they were a fire hazard and that they couldn't be used.
I know now copper doesn't spark and neither does brass; most places I have been of an industrial flammable nature have brass tools.
I don't know if the thinking was copper is a good conductor or what?
Or if it was just good old bureacratic thinking because the word copper wasn't used specifically.
But I'm glad that they clarified it by removing the lead only wording.
It's real tough (or has been for me) to get the same answer from any 2 rangers in the San Bernardino Forest. I get the same snear out of all of them when I mention hunting though.
I stumped 2 DFG wardens today when I asked if gobbler guillotines were legal. 1 said yes and the other said no at the same time.
Never did get it straightened out so I guess it all depends who you run into out there and what their interpretation is.
I've seen several write ups on best hog hunting bullets recommended by guides and barnes is always in the top 1 or 2.
Personally, I hate to see them ban anything because they always throw in add ons and expand the scope.
The folks I met today at the Cleveland Forest USFS, DFG, BLM, City of San Diego seemed very nice and not anti at all. I found the same thing at Angeles Forest too but those were the firefighters I spoke with.
Wish I could say the same for San Bernardino since it's right up the street (literally) from where I live.
Barnes also has the MRX which is tungsten core. More dense than lead I haven't tried them yet. I'm still waiting to hit the lottery first.
Can we get hunters on the endangered list so they can't screw with us anymore? Or maybe as an opressed minority group? Fight fire with fire right?

[Freedivr2]

QUOTE (billrob @ Feb 24 2007, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can we get hunters on the endangered list so they can't screw with us anymore? Or maybe as an opressed minority group? Fight fire with fire right?[/b]

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin about............

[larrysogla]

Billrob,
From my personal experience, Law Enforcement Agents interpret the law very narrowly and for them to be on the safe side, they gravitate towards the word "NO"!!! Plus the laws are written in the language of Attorneys and the legalese is so intimidating even a college graduate will have a hard time pinpointing exactly what is 100% allowable and what is 100% NON-allowable. The obscure GRAY areas are intimidating to define, so the LEA's will choose to say "NO"!!! PLUS also I have found from PERSONAL experience that they are truly ignorant of a lot of the issues because they don't have the time to read the encyclopedia size State penal code, Federal rules and regulations and County ordinances and City regs. It is nightmarish for them as well as for us. So we should just be on the safe side. We don't know what Township, City, County, State or Federal regulations are in effect in what area. PERSONALLY I STAY AWAY FROM THE GRAY AREAS!
Regarding TUNGSTEN rifle ammo, tungsten is the Armor Piercing Core in a lot of Military Armor Piercing ammunition. So I can assume that if you are hauled before a judge and are accused of using Armor Piercing Ammunition(tungsten), the judge can stretch the definition of Armor Piercing Ammo to include your Tungsten hunting ammo. Another Gray Area. So I would AVOID tungsten RIFLE ammo altogether.
Regarding lead contamination of shot animal carcass, the lead core ammo even on a PASS THRU will shed jacket(copper) material and also lead material and the lead material is being shed in very tiny fragments (soft point Big Game ammo has lead in the nose and in the core). That is the reason why recovered lead core bullets are NEVER 100% weight retention but more in the order of 80% OR LESS weight retention. These TINY shed lead fragments even on a pass thru is enough amount to cause lead posioning on a 10 lb. Condor or Eagle or Hawk. The small body weight of the birds will not tolerate lead even in small amounts. Yes, gradually even varmint ammo(the condors, eagles and hawks also eat the squirrel and coyote carcass) will have to be lead free. To think about it, this is in line with the Goobermint mandating Lead Free Gasoline, Lead Free Paint, Lead Free Food Tin Cans(they used to seal the Food Tin Cans by soldering the lid with lead) and also the manufacturers shifting from Highly Toxic Mercuric Ammunition Primers(Fulminate of Mercury) to NON-MERCURIC Ammunition Primers, NON-MERCURIC Electronics Batteries, from toxic Cadmium in Nickel Cadmium batteries(NiCad) to non-toxic NimH batteries without the toxic Cadmium. It is a trend that will will come SURELY and Inevitably. The cost???? The manufacturers will use Reasearch and Development but in the end it will still be expensive ammo. As of now I am using Barnes X in my .300 WM and .338 WM and they are accurate in my guns, but I don't plink with these expensive ammo nor do I target shoot with it. I target shoot with lead core ammo. 'Nuff said.

[QuackWhacker]

It was reported in todays Contra Costa Times, that the Tejon Ranch Co. has decided to ban the use of all lead ammo for hunting on it's property beginning with the 2008 hunting season. That's bullets, shot shells...everything.

And so it starts.....

[boarcrz]

Has anyone seen a condor next to a gut pile or flying over it?

[180pilot]

Myself and friends shoot "whistle pigs" ( Columbian Ground Squirrel) in Southern Oregon for ranchers each year. It is common to shoot 300 a day, we mostly use the .17 HMR which is lead core. If we return to the area within 2 days the most of the carcasses are gone, and that area is full of raptors and Owls. There are many Varmint hunters in Northern California, Oregon and Washington and Idaho doing this every year. How come we aren't seeing dead hawks, Owls etc. littering the landscape. As a matter of fact it appears I see more raptors up there every year. Are hawks and Owls smarter then Condors about eating metal??????? What about Turkey Vultures?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12685072

Has anyone noticed the Chinese are buying up Copper like mad, forcing the price up.

http://english.people.com.cn/200402/16/eng...16_134904.shtml