The Campfire

[kuff]

This was sent to me as an email and I thought you guys would find it intersting too. Definately worth pondering. Thanks

This is from a Canadian newspaper
Titled "America: The Good Neighbor"

Widespread but only partial news coverage ###was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lessor extent, Britian and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them?

Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboos. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. (I believe that several countries sent search and rescue teams)

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

[ToddP]

Another editorial...

To those that have challenged our very souls......


We'll go forward from this moment
by Leonard Pitts Jr. of the Miami Herald

"It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that
help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this
moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only
thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to
the unknown author of this suffering.

"You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.

"What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our
World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

"Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

"Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

"Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

"Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a
ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the
ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that,
we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement.

We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

"Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us
weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that
cannot be measured by arsenals.

"Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're
still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still
working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy
novel.

Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history
of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

"But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible
in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

"I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you,
I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble
with dread of the future.

"In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can
be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened
security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from
this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably
determined.

"You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of
our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On
this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

"As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

"So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange:
You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't
know what you just started.

"But you're about to learn."






(Edited by ToddP at 1:37 pm on Sep. 13, 2001)

[mkacala697]

kuff I was read this in my high school history class and was very thankfull that someone beside us in america can see this, now if all of canada, europe and the middle east could see it that way we would be able to really end terrorism

[mechengineer]

in response to an above post

"Does any other country in the world have a plane ###to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them?"
### ### ### ###
France makes Airbus, and some of their planes do rival american planes, esp. the new one that's coming out, better than the any of the 747 series


"I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble."

And i can name at least 1 time when the Americans raced to attack other people. When the Americans crossed the Nuezes River and attacked Mexico, resulting in the great loss of land.
And what about the genocide of the NATIVE americans, millions killed and millions displaced.

One more thing, about the moon landing, men only landed once....or none. Take a look at ALL the pictures brough back and u will find....1) same hills with rocks placed differently. 2) Double angle shadows when there was only one major source of light, the Sun. 3) No dust on the upper surface of the pads of the landing craft. 4) Camera cross-hairs partially hidden behind objects! 5) How did the astronauts get through the radiation field between the earth and the moon?? even now NASA is trying to figure out how to send men past it in order to go to Mars!

True, the United States of America has done many good things throughout the world, but it has done many horrible things as well. After taking classes at UC Berkeley that delve deep into the unbiased truth about this country, it is impossible for me to see this country like i did years ago. I like this country, but i acknowledge that like everything else, it has its faults.

[ToddP]

The first editorial of this post was written 28 years ago but still fits the occassion.

From: ###http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blamericans.htm

Aside from the fact that this text was written 28 years ago and has suffered minor revisions during its travels in cyberspace, it is authentic. Journalist and radio personality Gordon Sinclair delivered the commentary on his Toronto show in 1973, when anti-American sentiment was at an all-time high. For obvious reasons, Americans ate it up.

The piece has circulated on the Internet — sometimes attributed to Sinclair and sometimes not (but always to "a Canadian&quot — for several years. Its suddenly renewed popularity in September 2001 can be attributed to the recent terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Americans, smarting from the implicit hatred behind these acts, have found solace in sincere words of appreciation from a geographical neighbor.

Those words were not, however, authored "recently," as most currently circulating versions claim.





(Edited by ToddP at 10:51 am on Sep. 14, 2001)

[Marty]

Hey Mechengineer,
Spoken like a true Berklian. ###My Sr. Manager graduated from Berkley. ###Even he admits that Berkleys liberal campus is great for teaching two classes: the art of protest and letter bomb 101.

Do some good and go fill a deer tag.

[Hogskin]

Mechengineer,

It's dogcrap people like you that are the worst of this country, kicking it when it's down. ###Being the obvious jackass you are, it's no suprise that you fell for the revisionist history that all the liberal jackoffs at Berkeley were shovelling. ###You lost ALL credibility when you tout your Berkeley education as some sort of badge of intellect. ###If you have so many problems with America, pack up your junk (read: Berkeley transcripts) and haul ass, you certainly won't be missed by the real Americans. ###n fire mad:

If you worked in the WTC or the Pentagon, I doubt you'd be singing the same tune. ###But that would be impossible since those institutions only take educated people and the only good thing a Berkeley diploma is good for is wiping your ass. ###:flush:

Sleep well in ignorant bliss.

Hogskin

[kuff]

Mechengineer, I guess we are all entitled to our opinion. You probably believe OJ is innocent too.

[mechengineer]

oj is guilty, that is my opinion
US attacked Mexico, Airbus is french, those r not, they r truths

[Swampy]

### ### ### ### ###Mechengineer States:

"After taking classes at UC Berkeley that delve deep into the unbiased truth about this country, it is impossible for me to see this country like i did years ago. I like this country, but i acknowledge that like everything else, it has its faults."


### ###Are you saying that UC Berkeley is unbiased? ###This is what you believe? Yes, everything has it's faults, and that is one of yours.
### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ###I Love My Country.

[karstic]

Mechengineer
Any modern country with over a 200 year history will have blood on their hands. I think the original poster was referring to more recent history. The US has always been at the forefront of humanitarian relief efforts. Famine in Africa, earthquakes in Japan and Turkey, hurricanes in Central America. etc. Nobody complains about American intervention then. Don't get me wrong I don't think America is a saint, but when someone is crying for help who is usually the first to respond?

"France makes Airbus"

Actually Airbus is a consortium of English, German, French and Spanish parts.

"And i can name at least 1 time when the Americans raced to attack other people. When the Americans crossed the Nuezes River and attacked Mexico, resulting in the great loss of land."

And Mexico's current war against its indiginous peoples
Japan's occupation of China
Stalin's own genocide of many different Europeans caught behind the Red Curtain
Israeli persecution of the Palestineans
Iraqs persecution of Turks

Whats your point here? That America is evil in some way. Have you ever lived or travelled outside of America. How wordly are your views? What are your gut feelings toward Muslims?

"After taking classes at UC Berkeley that delve deep into the unbiased truth about this country"

Who's Unbiased truth? Who's interpretation of history are you following? What makes those classes unbiased? Did you read the primary historical resources or were they interpreted for you? Even history professors can have an agenda.

"One more thing, about the moon landing, men only landed once....or none. "

In what history class did you learn this?

America has its fault but highly overshadowing those faults are the rights guaranteed to its citizens by the Constitution, under which you received your Berley education, the right to express yourself in this forum, the right to own firearms, the privledge to hunt, the right to practice and preach your faith to others, the right to question your nation's history. There are many places in this world you cannot do these things.

Only in America do you have that FREEDOM.

[mechengineer]

when i mentioned unbiased truth, i meant both sides of the arguments from primary sources, not textbooks, because we did not use them in the classes i mentioned them. And yes, i have travelled and been outside this country i ###know why some people despise it. Capitalism has raised this country above others, but also at the cost of others. Who here has seen firsthand what third and fourth world nations are facing due to globalization, especially by american corporations.
And since you say that u were talking about more current history, got to Indian Reservations in the midwest to see firsthand what is happening, check out their statistics regarding poverty, health, education, etc. And regarding the Chiapas events, the government is currently working on agreements, not a Holocaust. How patriotic it must have been to massacre hundreds of mostly women and children with gatling guns.
"Today's treatys are being written on the recycled paper from treatys broken by the US"-anonymous circa 1990

USA, the worlds hero...unless u live in a country that cannot be exploited by us. Where was the US when Rwanda was facing a genocide between the Hutus and the Tutsis

What goes around comes around:
The natives helped the americans, and what did they get, 99% of the native population got blasted.
The americans helped Osama Bin Laden and what did we get, we got blasted.

Your tax dollars at work: CIA training Osama Bin Laden only to have the whole thing backfire.


-meche





(Edited by mechengineer at 7:43 pm on Sep. 14, 2001)

[BigDog]

Another sniveling little liberal who has done nothing to support this country but continues to live here in the best life style in the world and complain about it. From the same idiotic group as Amos Brown who stood up and blamed us for this act of terrorism. Liberal crap.

[Speckmisser]

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

OK, so this is another statement from long ago that has a special relevance now. ###The fact that it was written by a Frenchman in the 18th century gives it distance, but its meaning should still be strong in today's America. ###It is an important part of what this country is about, and what makes it such a great place to call home. ###

I reread MechEngineer's original post, and saw nothing in it that suggested disloyalty to this country, or "kicking it when it is down". ###There were some statements I questioned, of course, and some I downright disagree with (only one lunar landing?) but the intent did not seem to be deserving of the angry responses it generated. ###Go back to it, and look again. ###

This is a heated time. ###It is a time when many are looking for a target upon which they can vent their anger and frustration. ###I've seen many small groups of friends coming to odds since last Tuesday. ###A small slip, an honest opinion, and suddenly the speaker is an enemy of the state. ###Is this the way things are to be?

At risk of being branded a "sniveling liberal" myself, I'd suggest taking a breath and giving some thought to at least part of what Mech has to say. ###There is more to this whole thing than a handful of madmen living in some vacuum of their own reality. ###While I'd be the last to "blame" the US for this act, we must really look into the reasons that this is happening. ###

Failure to acknowledge and learn from this experience will only cause us to relive it over and over again. ###Ask the question, why do some people hate the US so? ###What are we doing to mitigate that hatred (or should we be doing anything)? ###Then ask the question, what response will do the most to put an end to this hatred? ###What response will do the most to make it worse? ###

The Middle East is not Japan. ###We cannot bomb these people into submission. ###Even after the show of overwhelming force against Iraq, we only succeeded in pushing the military out of Kuwait. ###We did not "defeat" anyone except in the lightest military sense.

For most of these countries, war has been a part of their daily life for decades (in some cases, for centuries). ###The religious fanatics who drive the conflicts have no fear of death. ###Our threats carry little weight for them. ###The only people in fear of our attacks are the bystanders...the potential "non-combatant casualties". ###

Keep in mind as well that the "terrorists" would like nothing better than for us to bomb and kill innocent bystanders. ###Look at the PR spin that gives them. ###Suddenly, the US is doing the same thing we criticize them for...killing innocents. ###And the anti-western sentiment that already simmers in the Middle East will be heated to boiling. ###Any time we enter armed conflict with one region in this area, we risk starting a full-fledged World War.

This is a major diplomatic nightmare, and there is no simple solution. ###Our government recognizes this as well, which is why no Tomahawks have fallen on Kabul. ###This is why we have diplomats working overtime in Pakistan right now. ###It is why we are working closely with our old cold war enemies in Moscow. ###

I've been mainly silent on this board because I fully expect that some of my views will get the same reaction that Mech just received. ###

It's a horrible, terrible thing that has happened, and I feel deep sympathy for the people who lost family and friends. ###I am constantly amazed at the displays of heroism and community in the wake of it all. ###There's a proud lump in my throat when I see the Stars and Stripes flying above it all. ###And I do not think we can sit meekly back and try to deal with this without some serious retribution... some serious ass kicking, if you will. ###

But I also feel strongly that a quick and unmeasured response is NOT the way to go. ###Cooler heads must prevail. ###We cannot play into the hands of the people who did this by bombing blindly or marching into war without clearly identifying an enemy. ###We have to know, as well, that regardless of Bin Laden's role in the attacks, we cannot simply execute him and expect it to all end the next day. ###There are a thousand more ready to fill his sandals, and the beliefs that drive them have existed for over two thousand years. ###

We cannot be so blind and naive as to believe that our policies and activities in the Middle East have not created significant enemies. ###We have divided the region into politically tailored countries to suit our designs, supported dictators, armed revolutionaries, and toyed with economies. ###To many people in the Middle East, we are a colonialist government...just like Great Britain was in 1776. ###

It is not for me to say whether our actions in the mid-east are right or wrong. ###But I will say, clearly, that there are a lot of reasons some of these people hate us enough to perpetuate acts of terrorism on us. ###I'm certainly not saying we "deserve" it, but I can't believe that it should come as a total shock either.

What will our policies be after this is all settled? ###A return to status quo? ###If so, then be prepared to repeat the whole bloody affair again and again until some significant change is made in how the West conducts business in the Middle East. ###That change might be some basic, peaceful withdrawal...or it may be total occupation (colonization) of the region. ###I don't know what it will take. ###But a totally new paradigm needs to be developed. ###Simply trading blood for blood won't do the trick. ###Life is cheap.

But while all this is happening, some tolerance and consideration of "different" thinking needs to take place within our own little microcosm (Jesse's Hunting and Fishing Forum). ###We can't lash out at one another simply because we are frustrated. ###That serves no constructive purpose. ###This is a time which requires unity, and non-traditional thinking might yield some answers which we are all desperately seeking.

Those who will flame away at this point may do so. ###I only hope you read the whole thing, and not a single sentence or paragraph. ###But if you wanna call names, you may as well save your breath because namecalling will not elicit a response from me. ###Failure to consider alternate perspectives is your own loss. ###Not mine (or MechEngineer's). ###

[BigDog]

I agree Speckmisser that part of what makes this a great place to live is the fact that we have the right to say what we want. However, I feel that having the right should be tempered by common sense. It a time when the country is hurting and in mourning, we should all try to look at the glass as half full. So, it irritates me when I hear and read the words of these downers who can not do that and who use this as a way to complain and whine about things this country has done wrong in the past.
Here we are, most of us in some level of shock, someone posts an editorial that should remind us of the good things and all these downers can do is spit on it.
Just gets my hackles up a bit. But yes, they do have the right to voice their thoughts. And, I have the right to disagree with them and tell them so.

[kinglongshanks]

This country has faults? ###Hmm.. I can think of two: San Andreas and New Madrid.
MechEng. I'm with you on the Indigenous people, for I am 3/4 American Indian of the Fox tribe. ###For the most part, we were really raked over the coals!
,nuff said, on to hunting/fishing. ###O.J. is guility!

[Speckmisser]

Big Dog, et al..

You've every right to your feelings, and, this being America, you've every right to speak them aloud. ###Isn't it a great thing? ###

I agree that the juxtaposition of Mech's statements (and mine as well, I suppose) with the Gordon Sinclair column is a little harsh. ###I also agree with you that a lot of people are taking advantage of this time to preach about the evils of America, and how we brought this on ourselves... even that we deserved it. ###There are people who say we shouldn't do anything about the WTC because we are guilty of things just as heinous. ###And that makes no sense whatsoever. ###Those people I place in the same category with those who just want to bomb the Middle East into oblivion as an answer to the problem. ### Neither option is constructive.

But there are also people who are pointing out the "evils" perpetuated by the US and its allies in the Middle East for another, more constructive reason. ###They are discussing this not because they want to vilify the US, but because they want Americans to understand that this terrorism is not happening without cause. ###We may not fully understand that cause, or how it can generate such hatred and violent acts, but we must understand that it is deep-rooted. ###It goes way beyond a "bunch of crazies in the desert." ###If we do not understand the source of the animosity, we will never be rid of it. ###

Unfortunately, many Americans are placing these reasonable voices in the bin with the pacifists and do-nothings. ###The words they are speaking are the same, but their purpose is far more noble than they are given credit for.

At any rate, it's important for voices to be raised and listened to. ###Disagree all you want, but we can't close our ears to reason... or close our minds to learning. ###I can't speak for Mech's reasons for his post, but my own are certainly intended constructively...hoping to aid understanding of why this happened.

[BigDog]

I will agree that we have made some mistakes and have even purposely done some wrongs in the Middle East. But, if bin Laden is behind this, then those wrongs are not applicable. He hates the U.S. because it is a democracy and because it is not Islamic. He has publicly stated it numberous times. His war against us is because of our lifestyle. Because democracy and freedom of choice is the greatest lifestyle in the world in the minds of logical people. And that is why it interferes with his goals of a world dominated by his version of fundimental Islam.
I guess, in my mind, I have assigned the blame for this to him. So, in that vein, in my mind, there is no possible justification or reason to consider other reasons behind it.

[Speckmisser]

Just a quickie here, because I think this debate is played out... But I want to be clear. ###

I am NOT against retribution/justice against the perpetrators of the crimes last Tuesday (or the other murders committed on the USS Cole and the US Embassies). ###If Bin Laden is responsible, then he and his organization need to be brought to the table and dealt with severely. ###In fact, I have tried often to think of a punishment in keeping with the severity of what they've done. ###Execution is no good, since they pray for death in the name of Allah. ###Life imprisonment is no good, because that will not provide the sense of revenge that so many people are needing right now, not to mention that idealogues like Bin Laden are just as powerful from prison as they are on the street. ###I don't have a solution, nor does anyone else, I think.

Regardless of the reasons for the actions of the terrorists, they were truly heinous and criminal. ###The US is not to "blame" for what happened. ###I don't want my words to be read that way. ###Our policies, however, are a source of conflict. ###If that is not addressed somehow, there will always be another Bin Laden, no matter what we do to the current one.

[Rimrock]

Hello Outdoorsmen. I'm new to this forum (and computers). I live in central Cal. Have access to ranches in the that hold good numbers of coyotes. My approach has been spot and stalk (or spot and shoot). Tried calling yeas ago without success. Now you guys have got me fired up again. This country is low foothills with virtually no cover except grass and natural cuts. I expect a challenge. Or failure.

Have been using a Model 70 in .243. Just added a .223 custom Sako action with a Douglas barrel. Am anxious to try it.

Elk hunting with a bow and plenty of time if first rate. Summertime fishing for bass at night ain't too bad either.

Play fair.

[Hook]

Welcome to Jesse's forum, there are a lot of great people here that like to share ideas and information. so jump right in anytime.

Take a look at the varmint board about yotes.

[jackrabbit]

Hey Rimrock, where in Central Cal you located, I'm in Fresno.

[Rimrock]

Hi Jackrabbit,
I'm in Modesto. Fresno was too hot when I lived there.

Play fair.

[wyokid]

Welcome Rimrock
### This the best place on the http://www.....
### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ### ###Have fun.

[Fubar]

Rimrock ###Welcome to Jesses Forum. ### ### ### ### ###Fubar

[kuff]

Nice to have you along on this ride!

[Rimrock]

Thanks for the welcome Fellas. I'm just kinda sitting back and going to school on the rest of you. I'm afraid I would just let my ignorance show.

Play fair.

[h2obobh2o]

Hey Rimrock, welcome to the board from the East coast, you found the best site on the net!!!!Don't be afraid to chime in, everyone has something to share!

[Welby]

Hey Rimrock! ###I'm from Mississippi. ###You have found a great bunch of friends. ###

Beware of Tinhorn though...he's quite a troublemaker! ###:wink-yellow:

(Edited by Welby at 12:04 am on Dec. 5, 2001)

[Tinhorn]

Huh! ###wut i due ?

and Welcome Rimrock, head on over to the Movement cam build it forum, You'll Like it (the cam that is)

Tinhorn

[Rimrock]

Hey Tinhorn, ###I tried to find the "Movement cam build it forum". Couldn't. Am I dumb, or are you trying to cause trouble like Welby said? Need help.

[Tinhorn]

Whoops! ###I mispelled "Game Trail Cameras and Camcorders" didn't I

Well, I never did say my MemBrain was all that good.......

and BTW, Jesse (Specrl17) has a run-down of how to build your own cameras here, you can ask any questions on the Forum Mentioned above

http://www.jesseshuntingpage.com/homebrew-cams.html

See Ya!

Tinhorn