The importance of lead hardness...

[BelchFire]

What, primarily, is the importance of lead hardness as far as casting bullets is concerned? I know from AMMOe's (excellent!) article that various mixtures have varying levels of hardness, and in some cases, a multiple of 2 1/2 times the hardness of pure lead, but WHY?

Not the physics of why one is harder than the other, but why do you want one specific hardness as opposed to another? Are there better times to use the hardest you can find, and better times to use the softest you can find? Which applications call for which hardnesses?

[AMMOe]

Belch: I tried to answer this last night but I was too tired and ended up making a mess if it. I'll see if I can be a bit more concise today.

As far as shooting game goes, it really doesn't matter. Even the hardest bullet will dent badly if you drop it from waist high onto concrete. Almost all lead-alloy bullets will expand to some extend when they hit meat, provided the speed is reasonable, of course.

For technical reasons, you might want a softer bullet. I have always shot pure lead in muzzleloaders. I was raised that way. In a musket with a minie ball you need rapid and fluid expansion for the bullet to engage the rifling. Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gun Works used to say that you could load hard lead round balls in a front loader but I always stuck to pure lead if I could. I'm sure hard lead balls would work fine.

For me the real determiner is application. I ask myself, "How am I going to shoot these bullets?" I will rarely shoot anything softer than wheel weight in a centerfire rifle. (Mostly because I get that for nearly free and I need to buy my pure lead.) If I was shooting my 22 Hornet with a 40 grain cast bullet, and I had a large quantity of Hodgdon's "Lil Gun" around I really wouldn't need to worry about using an alloy harder than wheel-weights. Top load only generates 24K in pressure for a velocity of 2800 ft/sec. If on the other hand, I wanted to try Accurate Arms 1680 at the same speed I'd need to heat treat the bullet to withstand the 43K kick in the pants the bullet was going to get when I pulled the trigger.

If i'm understanding your question correctly, I think this explains my position on when and why I'd use harder alloy. For me- aside from black powder applications- it all boils down to pressure. ~AMMOe

[BelchFire]

Without knowing why, I wanted to get you to tell me what hardness was all about. Sounds like it's more a rifling thing than anything, huh?

Here's why I ask. I'm going to use your 9# Wheel weights to 1# chilled shot for my .338-06, but for now, I'm moulding exclusively for my .50 cal.

And I'm moulding for a sabot. Since the lead isn't in direct contact with the riflings, the hardness issue is now limited to expansion, and I'm guessing from your explanation above that pure wheel weights would work OK in a .50 if the speed is up there. Did I interpret that correctly?

You're right, they're free, and mould a great looking bullet. If the rifling is the trick, then I should be OK with pure wheel weights in a sabot, shouldn't I?

Now the .338-06 is another story altogether. I'll leave that one for a later discussion.

[quigleysharps4570]

I shoot patched roundballs that are cast from WW's. Work just fine. Course that's for play. Ones for hunting are cast of pure lead.

[AMMOe]

Belch: You can certainly use wheel weights for saboted bullets. They may perform better than pure lead on game, you never know. As to expansion, well, if I was shooting a 30-30 at 1800 ft/sec and the bullet opened up to 50 caliber I'd think I had a killing SOB on my hands. Following that line of thought, for me, anything that starts out making a half-inch hole on my quarry is free to expand or not! I think the issue is moot with a fifty!

Can't wait for you to start up on the 338. That should be fun. I got my BRNO .222 cast bullet loads up to 2754 ft/sec with sub MOA last week. Too bad the dratted snow storm came through. (I've been w/o internet for 2+ days but my power stayed on! I was lucky!) ~AMMOe

[quigleysharps4570]

Originally posted by AMMOe@Oct 7 2005, 08:46 AM
Belch: You can certainly use wheel weights for saboted bullets. They may perform better than pure lead on game, you never know.### ~AMMOe
No way.

[AMMOe]

Quigley: Why not? In certain circumstances the harder bullet might provide for better penetration. ~AMMOe

[quigleysharps4570]

You're right. Wasn't thinking of penetration when I said that.

[AMMOe]

Ah well; In a fifty-caliber I think it&#39;s all moot anyhow. Big hole in, big hole out. Dead deer, eh? http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-cool-shades-down.gif ~AMMOe

[BelchFire]

Originally posted by AMMOe@Oct 8 2005, 06:50 PM
Ah well; In a fifty-caliber I think it&#39;s all moot anyhow. Big hole in, big hole out. Dead deer, eh? http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-cool-shades-down.gif ~AMMOe
Why don&#39;t we have a smilley pumping his fist?!

Whoosh, Whoosh, Whoosh!!!

[AMMOe]

Keeps the younger folks guessing! ~AMMOe

[BelchFire]

Andy, you&#39;re right of course. Expansion or no, .50 does the trick. Technically, this is a .452 in a .50, but still. Pure wheel weight. The big hole in/big hole out theory has been proven albeit on a small hog. 62#, nearly facing me. Bullet went in through the middle of the left ear, into the shoulder, and exited behind the right rib cage. Hog hit the dirt like you dropped him out of the sky.

Wish I could have tried on a bigger hog, through the shield, but this&#39;n&#39;ll eat good on a smoker 1/2 at a time. http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-dancin-red.gif

[AMMOe]

Yes it will ! (drool. smack!) Nice pig! I was out with my Navy Arms "Buffalo Hunter" .58 the other day giving a lesson in BP shooting to the guy who wants to borrow it next week. He was shooting it well and seemed pretty comfortable with it so when he asked if he could shoot a minnie-ball into the dirt bank behind the 50 yard backstop and retrive it I said sure. Well... he got tired of digging! There was 3/4" - 1" tunnel shot through the clay and gumbo but he didn&#39;t get to the end of it before he quit digging! Eighty-five grains of powder and a 510 grain minie. I asked him if he had any further doubts about the BP / Minnie penetration and he just shook his head. Can&#39;t wait to see his face when he dumps a muley! ~AMMOe