View Full Version : You gotta read this bizzare idea!
11-30-2004, 06:22 AM
In the hog hunting forum there is a thread with a guy who claims he was told by his experienced and "expert" archery buddies that they fill thier aluminum arrows with some salt. It's suppose to stay against the knock when released from the bow and then slam forward on impact to help drive the arrow forward and achieve fantastic penetration.
There are so many things wrong with this theory I don't even know where to begin. Who else has ever even heard of this?
11-30-2004, 06:53 AM
sounds like it would work..........if it wasn't for the fact that the salt would more than likely cause the arrow to go "wacko" do to being off balance.
11-30-2004, 08:50 AM
11-30-2004, 11:53 PM
to be honest I too have heard of useing a precise amount of a granular substance poured into your arrow for penetration on impact. If I am not mistaken there is a company out there that sells the stuff to do this. The sand or whatever will stay at the nock end until it meets the animal then "drive" the arrow home as it trys to stop. I have never needed this but in therory it would work as long as you could keep your forward of center correct. Which I think would be the hard thing to do with moving uncontrolable weight in your arrow. It is like a dead blow hammer effect.
12-01-2004, 06:11 AM
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If I am not mistaken there is a company out there that sells the stuff to do this[/b]
I have seen this product at cabelas I believe.
12-01-2004, 06:20 AM
Lets look at a few detials of this to see if it's "real" or if it's a line of crap like the carbon lined suits.
In order for the weight to slam forward with enough mass to aid in the penetration it would have to be really heavy. On a 450 grain arrow we are looking at a 50% mass or thereabout. Nothing less will be able to actually take control of the majority of the weight, being the arrow and broadhead.
Upon impact the velocity slows drasticlly from about 200fps to 100fps (guessing) at that time the sand/salt/ coal/ diamonds/gold dust/ lead particles etc. begin forward motion, and not as one solid mass but as a sliding stream of media. Then a few inches further the arrow comes to a dead stop in a bone, if it's the skin then there will be some elastic stretch causing more gradual slowing. In any case the internal "stuff" eventaully finds itself in the front of the arrow.
Where did the instant "hammer" effect come from? The only way you could have such an effect would be shooting into something that provides a dead stop. The to have the weight moving inside create additional drive it would have to be incrediblely heavy because the original amount of weight the arrow makes up was already stopped.
Lets look at this another way. If the cables in an elevator break and the car free falls to the ground through the elevator shaft at the instant that it hits the ground you jump into the air are you safe from the impact?
12-01-2004, 06:44 AM
and look at another point.......if the sand/salt/whatever was in the back of the arrow and on impact would move forward causing a hammer effect.....then if your in a stand and getting ready to shoot the tip of your arrow would be facing down which would mean the sand/salt/whatever would be at the tip end......as you release the arrow the sand/salt/whatever would then move up the shaft as the arrow would travel faster than the sand/salt/whatever causing a reverse hammer effect thus your arrow would come to a complete stop only inches from your bow......LOL.......
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Lets look at this another way. If the cables in an elevator break and the car free falls to the ground through the elevator shaft at the instant that it hits the ground you jump into the air are you safe from the impact?[/b]
as a matter of fact this happened to me in 1996......I jumped right at impact...........I didn't survive.
12-01-2004, 08:10 AM
Good point this only works up hill! If your shooting hogs even on level ground it would always be a screw up as the media would be against the insert end for every shot. Unless of course the hog is so big that you need to shoot up at him. More then likely the media would be blowing the knock off the arrow upon release! How would that help with your velocity having the counter weight?
The whole idea is just as silly and funny as I have ever heard! Much like the carbon lined suits are!
12-01-2004, 08:23 AM
How about drilling small holes in the arrow shaft just below the broadhead seat. Then when the hog is hit the salt will be pass through the small holes and into the flesh of the hog. It would be like pouring salt into a wound. http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-laugh-point-up-yellow.gif
I just can't see enough good to counter act the bad. The bad being unstable arrow wieght. But, all of the salt will be at the back of the arrow pretty quick on release. With todays bows there is plenty of power for penetration, if you are using a compound and not trad gear. If people don't like the penetration they are getting one good way is to switch to a heavier arrow, lots of people seem to want to use 350 to 400 grain arrows these days. Until quite recently my hunting arrows were 625 grains. Penetration is better with them than a 400 grain arrow. Also you could switch to a 2 blade head for even better penetration on game like hogs. My last hog was over 200 pounds, my arrow entered the front left leg severing the leg bone, proceeded through the chest, the stomach, the back right ham and came to rest just under the skin of the back right leg. Front left to back right on a good size boar including cutting leg bone. I'm happy enough with that kind of penetration to not worry about adding a little salt to my shafts.
I do know a guy who packs his Goldtips with pepper corns for added weight. They are packed in tight and do not move around like the salt theory though. His setup with broadhead, arrow and pepper is about 750 grains. He swears by it. Sure won't give you a good tragectory for taking 40-50 yard shots but I bet they bury real deep into what ever they hit at 20 yards http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-cool-shades-down.gif
12-01-2004, 11:24 AM
I got a better idea, take a .22 mag and place it right behind the broadhead, then take a small diameter aluminum shaft and place inside the shaft, about three inches shorter than the length of the actual shaft from nock to insert.
when the arrow hits home the little shaft inside will light off the .22 mag and then will blow through your broadhead causing massive blod loss due the frags going off everywhere, or better yet ensure your rig is puttin gout the max ke possible and do it the old fashioned way.
galiuro mountain man
12-29-2004, 11:59 PM
Just shoot your regular arrows, a good broadhead, and shoot good. I have seen a 40 pound bow with an arrow speed of 170 fps blow right through a bull elk and stick in the tree behind it. Sharp broadheads and good shot placement are the keys to good penetration. I wonder how this idea was tested.
12-30-2004, 10:13 AM
Just a gimmick for suckers, and we know they are out htere....
Why don't we come up with our own, would bearclaws idea break the "no firearm" regulation out here in CA? http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-wnk-yellow.gif
01-02-2005, 05:19 AM
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With todays bows there is plenty of power for penetration, if you are using a compound and not trad gear.[/b]
Most of today's traditional bows are shooting very fast compared to some years ago. Even at that, trad bows are very good at what they do. If you were to poll tradbow hunters most would say that their shots are pass-throughs. How much more penetration do you need? There was an article in Traditional Bowhunter magazine a while back of ladies shooting their 40 & 45 lb. bows and making passthrough shots on elk size game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
If people don't like the penetration they are getting one good way is to switch to a heavier arrow, lots of people seem to want to use 350 to 400 grain arrows these days. Until quite recently my hunting arrows were 625 grains. Penetration is better with them than a 400 grain arrow.[/b]
Most trad hunters shoot heavier arrows. The general rule of thumb is somewhere around 10gr/lb draw weight. (range 8-12) Seems like the trend in today's modern bows is to shoot lighter arrows to achieve faster flatter flight. (Hehe, try saying that 5 times real fast.) Tuning a bow is a staple for tradhunters. Working to get good arrow flight is paramount to penetration.
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Also you could switch to a 2 blade head for even better penetration on game like hogs.[/b]
Most tradbowhunters use a 2 blade cut-on-impact head already. We generally pride ourselves on getting them razor sharp, too.
All that to say: Don't discount traditional equipment in it's ability to down game. If you add all it's got going for it, it is an excellent archery choice - good arrow flight, heavy arrows, razor sharp cut-on-impact 2-blade head. What's not to like?
Back to the original subject:
The idea just oozes of trouble to me.
Keeping a good FOC would be next to impossible.
Shooting from a tree stand shouldn't be any different than ground level. The arrow nock will contact the salt before the arrow leaves the rest. The string would still be in contact pushing the nock toward the salt that hasn't had a chance to start moving yet due to it's zero momentum.
I've heard of guys who wanted a heavier arrow without affecting spine or FOC putting weedeater line inside the shaft and making it just long enough that it stays in contact with the nock and broadhead insert.
IMHO: If someone were to buy this "kit" the manufacturer will have already hit his intended target.
01-02-2005, 09:21 AM
Too many variables to overcome. The additional weight added would require even displacement to the inner wall immediately upon arrow release. Then consider shooting downward, say from a stand. Would the added weight slide forward in the shaft, and would this prevent penetration? Any additional weight, be it minimal or significant, will increase inertia upon rapid movement in that direction.
A nice calculator to determine rotational spin, just plug in the variables and make sure to convert. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/arot.htm
One more consideration; the inertia of the additional weight forward would vary greatly from an arrow hitting a tree and one passing through meat. The inertia moves forward proportioned to the stopping speed of the arrow.
01-02-2005, 12:03 PM
How about a little salt, peper, sage, and a few other spices? Instant pork sausage http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-bag-on-head.gif
Powduck, I agree 100%. Let me just say that I was by no means putting down trad gear. I have the utmost respect for the archers using trad gear and I know it to be extremely effective. I would love to switch to trad gear some day but right now with all my hobbies I don't feel I have the time to practice like I would need to in order to be effective. I live in the city and have to travel just to shoot. If I could shoot in my back yard, even a few arrows a day it would make the switch something I could do. I only posted saying that bows had plenty of power, especially the compounds, so why would you want to try a half baked idea that messes with arrow balance just to get a little more penetration.
01-02-2005, 04:38 PM
Thanks for the clarification, BDB. After re-reading my post I hope it didn't sound inflammatory. That was not my intent. Once you try the trad way it's real hard to go back to wheels. For me, it was just so much more fun to shoot.
The grains would stay in the rear of the shaft even shooting straight down. The arrow speed would be faster than the grains falling due to gravity. Good point, mrinex, about the difference in stopping of the arrow.
01-08-2005, 06:40 PM
Funny theory, but it is so http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lame-sign.gif . That extra weight coming forward upon impact would be like flicking a bugger off your kids nose. For sure the loss of initial arrow speed to get it all moving would kill off any imaginary final kinetic energy. A heavier arrow setup in the first place should just be considered for the penetration.
The closest thing to this theory I have heard in use would be along the lines of darts. Hammer head darts have a tip that soak up and slide in a bit upon hitting another dart and then the incoming shaft weight slams the dart tip past the offending dart without being thrown off target as much. Due to many factors like weight, balance, and profile or sleekness they work in that sport to gain a little edge over the competition.
Things like autobody hammers or chiropractic spine adjusters just are not the same idea in practice due to the discrete nature of an arrow in flight on its own with the air alone as its friend or foe. It has no greater mass backing it up so to speak to push off of or to gain from. The energy is fixed in stone the moment it leaves the bow.
01-30-2005, 04:27 PM
This has method can only be employed when shooting overhead i.e.
WHEN PIGS FLY!!!
02-03-2005, 02:10 PM
PT Barnum made a career out of selling to suckers and he was rich. As long as there are suckers in the world that buy into stupid ideas like this one, then there will alwys be someone willing to market something that will release them of whatever money they may still have left.
The modern bowhunting set-up is more than capable of doing the job it is designed for. Every other invention that has come down the pike (mechanical broadheads, exploding tips, lighter arrows, faster bows, etc.) was only designed to accomodate those people that think they need an edge to get what they want.
The fact of the matter is simple - shoot straight, shoot often, and know your equipment and the vitals of what you are shooting at, and most of all - keep 'em sharp! The single-most devastating alteration that a bowhunter can make to their equipment would be to switch to a high-quality, leading-edge broadhead (one with a sharpened blade all the way to the end of the point). The energy it takes to penetrate fur/hide/vital organs with this type of broadhead can make anybody's set-up lethal. It takes two and three times less pressure to penetrate hides with leading-edge broadheads as opposed to chisel-point types, and there is no sense talking about what it takes to slice leather with a dull or cone-fronted head.
wakmasterr: Now that is just plain crazy talk. Talking like that, you may just convince someone they don't need all the bells and whistles on the market http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-cool-shades-down.gif Kidding of course, you nailed it 100% http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-faces-toast-beers.gif
02-03-2005, 03:08 PM
jj, your 'avtar' freaks me out man!!! http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-hair-raisin-blue.gif
I am not trying to hijack this thread. I am thinking about penetration, and I understand that the idea is to get complete pass through so there will be a good blood trail. That being said, the best bow I ever had for killing rabbits had no pass through whatsoever. Pass through was a bad thing on bunnies. The arrow would go on through, the bunny would run away into the brush. When I stepped down to a 25 pound recurve, and field points the arrow would go about halfway through leaving the bunny in the middle. Bunny would try to run, dragging that arrow along and become stuck in the vegetation. I remeber a couple bunnies trying like crazy to jump into their holes, with the arrow holding them back. I also remember a few tearing themselves apart pulling through the bushes while that arrow held em back. Another bonus: you could always hear that arrow bouncing along through the bushes as the rabbit ran. This was especially helpful on jackrabbits.
I know this wouldn't work so well with deer, but I wonder, if a deer had one stuck halfway through it would hang up on a lot of stuff. Not as much blood to follow, but the deer might think about sitting still a lot faster if pulling itself through the brush was ripping a large hole larger as it went. A deer would fold an arrow in half or break it, trying to get away, but that might create a hell of a wound canal. Anyone have any experience with game stuck in the middle getting away? Just curious.
02-17-2005, 08:33 PM
Ooja, Isn't yer post above meant for Sierra Explorer's post on lite poundage for turkey? Link to: Bow at 32# for Turkey, Acceptable?? (http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=82733)
Yeah Wello my post would apply for turkey, accept, I thought turkey hunters used a broadhead and an arrow stop. I have never hunted with an arrowstop, (because I have never hunted turkeys with a bow) and it has been a long time since I even looked at them. It was a gizmo that went directly behind the broadhead, and slowed the arrow so as to eliminate pass through and maximize energy delivered to the target. One of them is the adder point, available from most archery suppliers. I would assume that given the ability of turkeys to jump the arrow, it is not a question of penetration, but rather a queston of a need for speed, and thus a need to have a powerful, fast bow, with a broadhead to maximize damage, and an arrow stop to help deliver the energy. Ideally, that arrow will go halfway through, and pin one or both wings, and make it difficult for the bird to fly away.
I was thinking about bigger game with my previous post.
AK in PA
03-16-2005, 04:19 PM
Nonsense. The salt will add weight to the arrow, which in itself will increase penetration as it contributes mass, but not as much as if an equivalent weight was fixed on the arrow. The loss occurs in the mismatched timing of impacts.
I don't even want to think about what a loose substance in your shaft will do to arrow flight, particularly as it will be setting towards the rear of the arrow during most of the flight time.
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