Looking to learn the 10/22 and rimfire in general

[Big Bubba Daddy]

Absolutely no offense meant towards JHO what so ever, I love this place, but does anyone know of an active message board where I can learn more about rimfire weapons, and especially the 10/22. With all the aftermarket items I have seen for the 10/22 lately, I have to believe there is some good online resource were I can learn what is up and talk to those who are into this gun.

I have been getting back into shooting lately and I am really enjoying playing with my .22’s. I have accumulated four .22 rifles over the years two of which I will always keep for sentimental reasons as well as the fact that they are good guns, an early Marlin 39A, and an American Arms Mini_Max I have already posted about. The other two I think I want to sell off, a Marlin 995, and the newer Mini_Max also mentioned in an earlier post (any suggestions on the best way to do that would be appreciated) and put the proceeds into building up a 10/22. I will take any advice you can offer on that as well.

Last question has to do with the Peoples Republic of California where I make my home, is there anything I need to keep in mind as I look into the possibility of building or modifying a 10/22 when it comes to the draconian gun regs of CA?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Gary W]

this should help

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/

[AMMOe]

You don't really need ot look any farther than JHO's own "PMI" who knows about as much about customizing 10/22's as anybody I know. The floor of his apartment sags under the weight of the custom barrels he's tested -both good and bad. ~AMMOe

[loren]

This is good place o learn, and to ask questions. Rugers are easy to work with, and there are many prouducts to choose from. I put two together from new actions purchaced from East County Guns in Wa. State. 245$ for two new actions, plus 10$ for the dealer who they were shipped to. I got almost everything from Midway, try www.midwayusa.com. One is a 22, the other chambered for .17Aguilla. THE 22. which is in black, I have about 330$, The other in camo, I spared little expense, have about 750$. Barrels 230$ to 78$, trigger Volqortsen 180$ to Power Custom trigger kit 50$, stocks 58$ to 26$(both were on clearence). the Aguilla has a Power Custom scope mount 45$ which requires some special skills that i do not have to install, thank you Danna!! Scopes, they are all over the place, lots and lots of opinions, I have 2.5x10 BSA 100$ with rings, to 40$ for Simmons 3x9.Tthe 22, shoots very well with cheap slow ammo, it dosent like the hot stuff!! All over the paper. The .17Aguilla is still a virgin, but is hot to trott with no place to race because there is an ammo availability problem that I dont qiute undersatnd. There are countless products out there for the Rugers, have fun shopping, learning, shooting, and be safe. http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-shootin-green.gif

[wildbirdhunter]

Ask way on the 10/22 myself and MPMI can tell you just about any thing you what to know about the 10/22.
WBH

[MarinePMI]

BBD,

Feel free to ask questions, we&#39;re always willing to help out here on Jesse&#39;s.

As to RFC, it&#39;s a great place to get a start. There are some knowledgable people there, as well as a wealth of information pertaining to the 10/22 action. I don&#39;t frequent there much anymore due to the clique&#39;ish atmosphere that has developed there. Essentially, if you don&#39;t agree with them whole heartily on certain things, a rift soon develops. Don&#39;t get me wrong, there are some nice fellows that hang their hats there, it&#39;s just that there are also some huge egos, as well as supposed "expert gunsmiths" that make me cring when they post.

This is the internet, so all are free to visit where they like, and stay if they choose. It&#39;s been my experience (as well as others) that RFC is a great place to get started when first learning of rimfires and 10/22 but, you will soon out grow it. I suppose it has to do with a preoccupation with only one specific action. Yes, there are other rimfire sections but the bulk of the posts deal with only the 10/22. A fun and interesting design (no doubt) but not really gunsmithing in my book.

There&#39;s a big difference between swapping parts, and spinning up a lathe to contour, cut and chamber a barrel. Both are types of gun work are endeavors of care and craftsmanship, but only one shows a thorough understanding of the intricate workings of many types of actions and the skill to work on them...

[Big Bubba Daddy]

Okay….. well then here are just some of the naive questions bouncing around in my head.

1) First off, why all the hype about the 10/22… am I going to find it a much better gun than say my old Mossberg 152, or the little Marlin 995 I have?
2) Not having actually held a 10/22, is it a small gun, as seams to be the standard for most 22 autos. I am a BIG guy, hence the BBD handle. I top out at 6’3” about 245 and I have really REALLY long arms. Most centerfire rifles feel too short for me, is there aftermarket stocks that don’t cost an arm and a leg that will put the action out in front where it would feel right for me?
3) What does re-crowning a barrel mean, why is it done?
4) What does free floating a barrel mean, why is it done?
5) What makes a barrel “Match Grade”?
6) What the heck is a bloop tube?
7) What would be an optimal poundage for a trigger if my main uses for the gun would be some target, some squirrel/rabbit hunting and general plinking? How do I get it to that point?
8) Always on the lookout for the least expensive way to accomplish my goals, am I better off buying new and building up from there, just buying parts and building my own, or picking up someone else project and modifying to my tastes?
9) Has anyone ever built a left handed version?
10) Is there a way to build a version that can be set up to switch from 22 LR to magnum with a minimal swapping of parts?
11) In the Peoples Republic of California, what is the largest clip I can legally use?

General points:
1) MarinePMI… I agree with your assessment about true gunsmithing. But, never having had any formal training, nor any mills, lathes or experience on either, this might be the closest I can get for a bit…unless of course someone in the general area (Santa Cruz CA) wants to take an eager bright guy under there wing and teach me a thing or two ;-)
2) What do you all think is the best ammo for the money (I know this could be, and probably has been the focus of many stings unto itself) and where will I find the best deal on it

Okay, that should be enough to spark some replies…remember…you asked for it ;-)

[wildbirdhunter]

Lets see if this helps some a little long

1 All the hype is more because it’s a parts gun with a lot of after market stuff that can be added too it with very little in the way of tools and know how.
I don’t know about the Mossberg or Marlin Autos but if you are looking at the bolt guns no the 10/22 will need a good amount of work to shot like most bolt Marlins and Mossbergs.
2 Yes it’s a small most after market stock will run you from $100 and up but you can spend a good amount on a truly custom stock it all is up to you and how much work you what to put into it.
3 re-crowing a barrel is when some one re-cuts the crown on the muzzle end of the barrel. It’s done to correct a poorly cut factory crown or a damaged crown most of the time or when you shorten a barrel also.
Here is a good page on rifle crowns http://riflestocks.tripod.com/targetcrown.html
4 Free floating a barrel is when the barrel past the receiver is not touching the stock in other words on a free floated rifle barrel you should be able to take a sheet of paper fold it over three or four times and run it down between the barrel and the rifle stock ( me I like it when you can fold the paper over four or more times. ) all the way to the receiver or 95% of the barrel. What this does it that as a round is fired and it travels down the barrel the rifling will start it spinning this spin will make the barrel wipe around some as the round travels down the barrel. By free foating you keep the barrel from hitting or contacting the stock and lets the barrel move around the same from shot to shot so the round exits the barrel crown at the same point and hitting the target at the some point.
5 A match grade barrels well a lot of people will call a barrel match grade to get more money of it but a lot goes it to making a true match grade barrel. A good high quality barrel black with a properly cut crown and chamber is the best may to go. After all an OK barrel with correctly cut crown and chamber will always out shoot a high priced barrel with a poorly cut chamber and crown every day.
6 A barrel that has been back boarded from the muzzle to make a tube at the end of the barrel. Why don’t know maybe weight loss but still have the look of a longer barrel
7 For most hunting and shooting cans or light target shooting about 3LBS is good. On a 10/22 a Volquartson trigger hammer will do it.
8 Pick up a good used stock one or the low end new one. All you are looking for is the receiver and trigger system if you are going full custom. Doing the all parts way will end up costing you more in the long run. I’d stay away from another person’s project gun it may have problems and cost you most in the long run.
9 Yes but the cases will still eject out the right side.
10 No not safely and I’d stay away from the kits and stuff floating around RFC that say you can. I’ve had both the 10/22 LR and MAG and the receivers and bolts are made of different materials on both of them.
11 If you don’t already have anything over ten round them you a limited to ten round mags.
I’m lucky I picked up 6 25 round mags before the ban and still have them.

As for ammo I like the Winchester power points and find it shoot the best in almost all my 22s. Now every barrel and rifle is different so you will need to test different ammo to see what shoots best for you.
WBH http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-ren.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-ren.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-ren.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-ren.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-jhp-rocks.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-jhp-rocks.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-jhp-rocks.gif

[MarinePMI]

BBD,

1. WBH is correct. The 10/22 is a modular design, with a v-block used to attach the barrel to the receiver. Because of this, no threads are needed to cut which reduces the cost of barrel manufacturing. Also, as it is a delayed blow back action, the tension of the bolt return spring sets the bolt against the breech face, and headspace is set by the boltface cut, not the length of the shank on the barrel. In laymen&#39;s terms, the average Joe doesn&#39;t have to be concerned so much with headspace.

2. A Hogue overmolded stock will give you an adult length of pull (LOP). If additional LOP is needed, simply purchase some 1/4" smoked plexiglass and cut out some pieces that slightly over sized (in regards to the size of the buttpad). Place some masking tape over the sides of the buttstock, and then place the spacers you&#39;ve made in between the buttstock and buttpad. With a bench mounted belt sander, grind away the excess plexiglass until you hit tape. You&#39;re done. This will allow you to add as much LOP as those of us at 6&#39;3"+ so often need.

3. The crown is the slight bevel (in most cases) at the end of the muzzle. Essentially, it is the last bit of barrel the round touches as it travels down range. It needs to be square...period. If it is off (even slightly) it can cause erratic, non-sensical groups (i.e. the dreaded shotgun pattern). Recrowning is just that. It is recutting the muzzle to ensure that everything is square. All too often (read the majority of the time) IMHO it is the cause of the rifles that "just won&#39;t group for crap", no matter what ammo or load data is used.

4. Again, WBH got it essentially correct. Free floating a barrel is a term used to describe the barrel hanging (floating) out from the receiver and touching nothing else. The receiver supports the entire weight of the barrel and allows the harmonics (vibrations) of the barrel to repeatable everytime as the round travels down the barrel. This is not possible with a 10/22. As it has a single receiver screw action, it must have a contact point somewhere else. This is often in the form of a pressure pad located in the barrel channel about an inch and a half back from the forend. Another option is to ensure that there is solid contact between the barrel and the stock for the first 2" ahead of the receiver. If either of the methods are not used, then the action will rock (much like a see-saw) and accuracy will suffer (most often seen as vertical stringing).

5. Several things make a barrel match grade. One being the chamber cut (semi-match in the case of semi-auto .22&#39;s to ensure reliable feeding and extraction). Other factors are stress relieving and tolerances of the rifling (the variance of the dimesions down the length of the barrel).

6. A bloop tube is basically either a back bored barrel (as WBH mentioned) or a welded on attachedment to the end of the barrel that has a larger-than-bore hole. The idea/logic of it is that when a round leaves the barrel, it requires a split second to stabilize in the atomosphere. The bloop tube is used to ensure no outside forces (such as wind) affect the stabilizing of the bullet and allow more consistency of that stabilization. It has never been proven one way or the other whether it has that much more benefit than a well crowned barrel without one.

7. 2 1/2lbs is an acceptable weight (IMHO). Any lighter, and you may be asking for problems out in the field. Gloves must taken into account for a hunting rifle, and will reduce your ability to "feel" the trigger&#39;s slack being taken up.

8. Either find a used action at a pawn shop, or watch the sales at the local sporting goods chain. Never buy someone else&#39;s project. You don&#39;t know what they&#39;ve done to it, and more than likely they are trying to get every dime&#39;s worth of the money they dropped into it. At the end of the day, a 10/22 is a 10/22. Additonal parts annd stock should not affect the price (especially with you being a south paw). Also, the scope doesn&#39;t matter either. If you go to any reputable gunsmith they will tell you "The more unique, or customized a rifle, the harder (generally) it is to move/sell." Same with wildcat chambered rifles of the centerfire variety.

9. It&#39;s an semi-auto, so the only option is a left handed or ambidextrous(sp?) stock.

10. Yes and no, but you have to start with a magnum and it involves switching A LOT of parts. i.e. Not practical AT ALL.

11. You can purchase more than 10rd magazines out of state, but it is technically illegal to bring them into the state of CA. (I think) There are some gray areas when discussing rimfire rifles in regards to CA&#39;s laws on "high capacity" weapons and accessories.

GP #2 - Wolf Match and Aguila "Golden Eagle" Match seem to provide good results on paper, though match ammo requires very good shot placement to put rabbits down. Good hunting rounds (IMHO) are CCI Velocitor, Winchester Dynapoints, and Aguila SE.

Hope this helps, though your mileage may vary... Cheers.

[Big Bubba Daddy]

Wow... you guys just rock you know that.

Thanks for all the info, I&#39;m learning but I think I have quite a ways to go. I really appreciate the effort.

Okay one last question that is probably more personal opinion than a search for hard facts or truth...and maybe I should have asked this one well before the others and the efforts you put forth but WBH brings up a point to think about.

If I am looking for a quality, and above standard accurate .22, should I be really thinking more about a bolt action gun?

Seems like if all I am going to use this for is whacking a few fuzzies, jumping a few cans off the beam or the occasional hole punching I am looking at quite a bit of $$$ and time to get to a gun (albeit a semi-auto gun) that will shoot almost as accurately as a lower priced bolt action which I could probably find in a true left handed configuration.

I guess the truer question is, can a tricked out semi-auto, be as accurate as well built bolt action?

Say I want to get into silhouette shooting or something like it, is a hot 10/22 going to be a good call, or would I be better off putting some cash into an old quality built bolt?

hmmmmm what to do what to do...

[English]

BBD..........

If you are looking for a good quality and reasonably priced bolt action then you would do a lot worse than a CZ which I&#39;m pretty sure most people will agree are superb value and excellent bits of kit.

You guys in the States have a lot of choice with the high end stuff with Coopers, Kimber and the like, they are less readily available over here but we have plenty of Sako&#39;s and Anschutz .22 bolt rifles.

Personally my favourite .22 bolt rifle, is a former US government property Mossberg 44 training rifle that was given to me by a friend. It is superbly accurate and I understand that there is a big following for them in the States.

With regards your 10/22 project I would find the cheapest most basic new one you can find or a used one in good condition because its a safe bet you will have most of the original gun parts gathering dust after a while!

Regards,

English

[MarinePMI]

English,

Per our previous e-mail discussion: The dates work for me, make the plans. I should have a box heading your way shortly with some trinkets and such. Do you want it sent to the North or South address?

Tim

[English]

MPMI,

Excellent, in fact it is spooky - you have snail mail on the way to you as of yesterday.

Send your mail to Scotland please (and thank you very much).

Ok I&#39;ll start looking to book a flight http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-bowdown-purple.gif

This is shaping up to be a good year! http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-2drunks-singing.gif

[MarinePMI]

English,

Cool! Remember to bring some sort of proof of Hunter&#39;s/Firearms Safety education. It&#39;ll make it easier on me getting you an out of state hunting permit. Hmmm...I&#39;ll have to check what&#39;ll be in season at that time. Either way I&#39;ll start stocking up on handgun ammo, as I know that you&#39;ve mentioned wanting to do that (shoot handguns) and you can no longer do it at home.

Who knows, maybe we can get a JHO hunt scheduled somewhere around that time frame as well...

[English]

BBD - apologies for hi-jacking your thread http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smiley-bowdown-purple.gif

MPMI - That sounds good to me too!

That should be OK, now that things are getting to the point where you require more formal evidence of hunting skill to get on land, I&#39;ve just completed the only formal and examined qualification here in the UK.

When I get my certificate through (4 exams wildlife ecology, markmanship test, species recognition and hunting safety [theory and test in the field], then i should be able to copy it and sent it through to you in advance if you like?

Regards,

English.