California deer population declines as habitat disappears. Muley, doe, buck, DFG, MDF, CDA, blacktail

[spectr17]

More bad news.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/04/08/4398312/california-deer-population-declines.html (http://www.sacbee.com/2012/04/08/4398312/california-deer-population-declines.html)

[Bossbrott]

Read the story yesterday, and Im assuming the trend will continue. Hopefully when its all said and done, the mtn lions will be gone too, so we can look for a return of the CA muley through reintroduction programs. The CA voter holds 100% accountability for the deers decline.

[solus]

well finally some research on the reasons the deer population is falling in CA. He brings up a lot of good points

[jesunter]

lemme see now wasn't it the sierra club that filed lawsuit after lawsuit blocking the controlled burns in the station fire area that would have left good habitat, and now the place is down to bedrock along with a bunch of peoples houses and memories. no food for the deer or anything else. and the lion population is unchecked, with obvious consequences to the deer herds. boycott ca and buy tags out of state and cancel subscriptions to the bee

[09twelch]

ya the deer decline the way i see it in this state theres some issues mtn lions need to have a drawing of tags and have a contolled season if dfg opens the state game refuges to hunting that will worsen the problem allow a bigger doe harvest and SP doesnt help when the clearcut an area than spray it and dont allow any healthy brush and vegetation grow for the deer to consume

[MULEY51]

I don't buy this completely. Yes, sprawl is consuming territory. However, mountain lions are a much BIGGER part of the problem. If memory serves me correctly, the "experts" say that a mountain lion will kill 1 deer a week. Using the DFG estimate of 6,000 lions (which is a ten year old estimate), my math tells me lions remove over 300,000 deer each year (52 weeks X 6000 lions). This also means that more than 3 MILLION deer have been killed by lions in the last 10 years. That is an unbelievable number!!! Urban sprawl IS a problem, but the cute little kitty is the REAL problem.
JMHO

[Beastmode]

I don't buy this completely. Yes, sprawl is consuming territory. However, mountain lions are a much BIGGER part of the problem. If memory serves me correctly, the "experts" say that a mountain lion will kill 1 deer a week. Using the DFG estimate of 6,000 lions (which is a ten year old estimate), my math tells me lions remove over 300,000 deer each year (52 weeks X 6000 lions). This also means that more than 3 MILLION deer have been killed by lions in the last 10 years. That is an unbelievable number!!! Urban sprawl IS a problem, but the cute little kitty is the REAL problem.
JMHO

Couldn't agree more!!!

[humbletaxi86]

Depressing.

[Bubblehide]

Great reply's boys! I couldn't help but notice that they said hunters were focused on bucks and not does, and completely left out the fact that most counties have and use a veto of doe hunts. As a result, many of us hunters, simply don't have a reasonable opportunity to harvest a doe. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of older does aren't fertile, and consider that 50 or below rating on deer in general, I'd venture to say that most of our non-old doe population experiences great difficulty successfully producing offspring, without consideration of the offspring survival :skeered:.

The point I get from this study, is that we may be on the brink of a permanent loss of many of our (uh, for a lack of a better term) deer herds.

The other thing I noticed is that the Forest Service doesn't appear to see any alternatives to controlled burns for managing our forests. Clearly, chain drags, dozers and other options that could leave the overgrowth to decompose and assist in keeping topsoil from washing out to our oceans, are being overlooked or ignored.

I don't doubt that habitat loss, either through development, or overgrowth/the wrong type of growth due to mismanagement is the main culprit for the decline in our deer population. However, it's pretty clear our deer populations are at a point of demise, that any recovery efforts will require a thorough and comprehensive approach that takes into account any and all factors that contribute to a decline in deer population.

[MULEY51]

Yeah, I love the part about hunters not taking does. Apparently the urban sprawl advocate doesn't know that does, for the most part, are OFF LIMITS in CA. There have been many years when, not locating a buck, I would have gladly taken an old doe. But I'm a meat hunter for the most part. Given the opportunity, I'm sure there are many others that would do the same. Same people that won't allow kitty killing, won't allow doe hunting. I wish people understood what is REALLY going on in CA.

[Farmerdoug]

Loss of habitat= That figures.......
Mountain lions= They don't help...

I still think the number one problem is poaching. Just like the Wild Justice episode a couple weeks back. What did they have? Wasn't like one guy per hour pulls over and shoots at Robo-deer. I'm sticking to my guns on this one. It boils down to P.O.S. poachers like the Yosemite dirtbags last year. They're not the only ones in the forest pulling that crap. They're just one of many who actually got caught. I say higher more wardens and forestry police and Mother Nature starts to come back. Just my :two cents:

[ULTRACARRY]

There are so many places in d14 I remember my dad pulling deer out of, not small either. He said 10 years ago if the forest service dowesn't allow burns they will choke out the deer. O-well ill hunt Arizona and colorado.

People need to get thier head out if thier @ss in our government.

[Rob P.]

I think the article is a good thing. When the news media publishes stuff like this is shows that the State is aware of a problem that is getting worse. Since the article is based on a study, what we need to do is shove that study down the throats of our legislators to get them to change the law.

We need general season either sex hunts. Limit them when it comes to does but this has to be done to get the herd population younger and healthier. some areas would be closed some years and then swapped for open areas in other years. Sort of a rolling black out on hunting based on herd populations and health.

We need to get DFG and the FS to start managing the LAND instead of just collecting fees and constructing bigger offices/ buying new trucks/etc with the money. PLANTED food source plots (like a field of oat hay) in areas where hunting is prohibited and the herds winter would help. Other forestry efforts to clear underbrush which is choking off natural feed would also be a huge help.

We need to get the people aware that some of the laws are hurting animal diversity and is thus CRUEL to the remaining protected animals. Starvation is not fun for anything and if it's a predator who is starving, we and our pets can become hunted. Pity and sympathy make poor laws as we are finding out with the mtn lions.

I do not think that opening the game refuges will help. The refuges aren't doing much now in the way of giving the herds a place to recover because the land is in such poor shape that the deer don't go there anyway.

I WILL NOT support ANY fee increases for any of these suggestions because so far DFG and the FS have shown that they are not willing to put our money where the problems are. Giving them more money won't change that. It's past time for MANAGEMENT not "mega-millions."

[MULEY51]

Loss of habitat= That figures.......
Mountain lions= They don't help...

I still think the number one problem is poaching. Just like the Wild Justice episode a couple weeks back. What did they have? Wasn't like one guy per hour pulls over and shoots at Robo-deer. I'm sticking to my guns on this one. It boils down to P.O.S. poachers like the Yosemite dirtbags last year. They're not the only ones in the forest pulling that crap. They're just one of many who actually got caught. I say higher more wardens and forestry police and Mother Nature starts to come back. Just my :two cents:

Agree that poachers are taking MANY deer. I do find it hard to believe they are taking anywhere near the 300,000+ that the lions are taking. Poachers need to be STOPPED and the lions need to be SHOT (which of course we can not do). CA will become a PETA heaven soon...since there won't be any deer left to hunt and the"people" will outlaw hunting altogether.

[baco]

Until we can get the lawyers, special interest groups, and others from suing the forest service, and dfg for trying to do their jobs nothing will change. I work for the forest service and believe me we are begging to burn. And when we try to burn we get the were polluting the air crowd, were burning down some special weed crowd, toad habitat crowd, nepa crowd, etc.

[Bossbrott]

I think the article is a good thing. When the news media publishes stuff like this is shows that the State is aware of a problem that is getting worse. Since the article is based on a study, what we need to do is shove that study down the throats of our legislators to get them to change the law.

We need general season either sex hunts. Limit them when it comes to does but this has to be done to get the herd population younger and healthier. some areas would be closed some years and then swapped for open areas in other years. Sort of a rolling black out on hunting based on herd populations and health.

We need to get DFG and the FS to start managing the LAND instead of just collecting fees and constructing bigger offices/ buying new trucks/etc with the money. PLANTED food source plots (like a field of oat hay) in areas where hunting is prohibited and the herds winter would help. Other forestry efforts to clear underbrush which is choking off natural feed would also be a huge help.

We need to get the people aware that some of the laws are hurting animal diversity and is thus CRUEL to the remaining protected animals. Starvation is not fun for anything and if it's a predator who is starving, we and our pets can become hunted. Pity and sympathy make poor laws as we are finding out with the mtn lions.

I do not think that opening the game refuges will help. The refuges aren't doing much now in the way of giving the herds a place to recover because the land is in such poor shape that the deer don't go there anyway.

I WILL NOT support ANY fee increases for any of these suggestions because so far DFG and the FS have shown that they are not willing to put our money where the problems are. Giving them more money won't change that. It's past time for MANAGEMENT not "mega-millions."

I agree 100%.

We as hunters represent less than 10% of the states population, the other 90% care about Brittney, Madonna, and Lindsay. What Im saying is, Californians for the most part, could care less about the deer population.

In my estimation, Id say DFG holds the most accountability for many reasons.

[easymoney]

I agree with many here about this article.
There are so many things that effect deer herd numbers and unfortunately CA is not good at stepping up at bat. DFG's hands are tied and there will probably never be a lion hunt in my life time, and the USFS is completely asleep when it comes to habitat and maintenance. Fire surpression is changing yet the feds and the state hold all the keys to habitat.
Baco is correct about the burns, especially control burns. CA and it's many treehuggers voices their disapproval about any burning what so ever.
My observations about poaching especially by ILLEGALS is well known here, they are here, they do poach and nothing is done...

[Bubblehide]

We need general season either sex hunts. Limit them when it comes to does but this has to be done to get the herd population younger and healthier. some areas would be closed some years and then swapped for open areas in other years. Sort of a rolling black out on hunting based on herd populations and health.

PLANTED food source plots (like a field of oat hay) in areas where hunting is prohibited and the herds winter would help.

I do not think that opening the game refuges will help. The refuges aren't doing much now in the way of giving the herds a place to recover because the land is in such poor shape that the deer don't go there anyway."


Rob I agree with a lot of what you say, however I have some concerns with the above. 1). When we look at rolling blackouts, as you put it, I have concerns that those closures will end up being permanent and then expanded upon, as in happening with the MLPA/MPA situation, while there is currently no need when it comes to fin-fish. 2). I have concerns that planted food plots will create dependency, and limit dispersal, which could not only create health issues for the animals, but provide for easier poaching. 3). The game refuges vary significantly, and a blanket statement just doesn't suffice.

In short, I like your ideas, but I stick with my statement in my previous post in this thread, I think it will take a truly comprehensive approach.

[Rob P.]

Hey I'm not any sort of expert when it comes to this stuff. I just threw my thoughts out there.

When it comes to food plots and dependency that's not necessarily a bad thing right now. I mean that DFG needs to do something to increase herd size and animal health RIGHT NOW. The fastest way to do that is to feed the critters. Future issues like feed lot dependency can be dealt with in the future when there is a reserve of healthy animals. Something simple like decreasing the size of the feed lot would require that the herd start to move to find food. Eventually they would be self sufficient and no longer require help this way. Interestingly enough, I believe this is DFG's job and they have the knowledge and authority to do it. A simple bulldozer and a few bags of seed at the right time of year and bingo! food for deer. It doesn't have to be pretty or easy to harvest like on a farm - just deer food.

Poaching will always be a problem until lawmakers and the courts stop pandering to the revolving door ethic of criminal justice. Certain offenses need to be handled with kid gloves and poaching is not one of those. Most offenses need the criminal to be told firmly and positively that he screwed up and ONCE is the only chance he's going to get. NO PROBATION. NO PAROLE. HUGE fines and penalties too. Second offenses of the same nature would require mandatory stiff sentences. The problem is that the legislature likes probation and parole because it gives the courts and police a reason to exist. Plus the legislature can continue with the "tough on crime" position that they've been using to get re-elected for decades now. (Not that they've ever done any good by that...)

The rolling blackouts should be part of regulations on management. There should be no permanent hunting bans because of them. DFG could use them to help manage herds on a local basis where populations are in danger. I don't know of any hunter who would willing hunt in an area to the point that the herd dies out completely. If that's the case, then why wouldn't we willingly let DFG close an area temporarily? DFG has a responsibility to prevent overhunting from happening and the rolling blackouts would help IMO. Limits would need to be put in place so that the blackout could only be in place for a maximum of 2 years in any one area before being opened again for a minimum number of years (I'm not a biologist so I don't know how long this should be). the blackouts shouldn't be necessary once deer populations reach a certain level so they wouldn't be permanent anyway.

Again, these are just my thoughts. It would require that DFG plan their efforts with an eye toward preserving the ability to hunt by managing the game animals in this state so that hunting could continue. This is a totally different position that ensuring that game species are preserved because that sort of thinking creates hunting bans. DFG's job is to manage game for hunting purposes. It is not their job to apeaze PETA and other groups. So long as DFG and the legislature understand that, then there should be no permanent bans on hunting any species (including mtn lions) or areas when hunting is temporarily blocked.

We need to consider giving in a bit now so we can continue to hunt & eat tomorrow.

[Bubblehide]

QUOTE=Rob P.;2325680]Hey I'm not any sort of expert when it comes to this stuff. I just threw my thoughts out there.[/QUOTE]


Oh come on Rob, don't ya think it's time you come clean:big-grin-aqua:.


Hey, I didn't say I didn't like your ideas, I said I have some concerns. Obviously those concerns could be worked through; I just fear that with the current DFG climate/infiltration, the entire state will be turned into a park.

[Rob P.]

QUOTE=Rob P.;2325680]Oh come on Rob, don't ya think it's time you come clean:big-grin-aqua:.

Ok, ok I confess. I'm an expert at shooting my mouth off. :skeered: Lately that's the only shooting I've been doing anyway. And, I've been doing a lot of it without any ammo.

Hey, we should do a meet & greet sometime in the not too distant future.

[MULEY51]

Yep, first it's copper bullets, no dogs for bear hunting, "temporarily" closed zones/areas...among other things. CA may well become a "park" before long.

[mtnsammy]

I like the ideas here. I only hope DFG reads them too and the biologists consider the deer and not just the hunter. In D14 they have been trying to bring up the population of goats. Real slow progress. I am still yet to see any goats ever. this only proves the point, we need to try more than just one idea. Keep an open mind and by all means keep the discussion open. I would love to see more deer. I was amazed at the numbers in Wyoming and Colorado.

[slanttop357]

I like the ideas here. I only hope DFG reads them too and the biologists consider the deer and not just the hunter. In D14 they have been trying to bring up the population of goats. Real slow progress. I am still yet to see any goats ever. this only proves the point, we need to try more than just one idea. Keep an open mind and by all means keep the discussion open. I would love to see more deer. I was amazed at the numbers in Wyoming and Colorado.Are you talking Goats or sheep/Ram/bighorn ?

[Bubblehide]

...Hey, we should do a meet & greet sometime in the not too distant future.



I'm up for that.

[mezcan]

1990 Kali outlaws taking kitties ......
1990 - present deer populations statewide have dropped 50% ....

Don't know about you guys but I don't believe in coincidences .

I believe in cause and effect .

[Where's Bruce?]

lemme see now wasn't it the sierra club that filed lawsuit after lawsuit blocking the controlled burns in the station fire area that would have left good habitat, and now the place is down to bedrock along with a bunch of peoples houses and memories. no food for the deer or anything else. and the lion population is unchecked, with obvious consequences to the deer herds. boycott ca and buy tags out of state and cancel subscriptions to the bee

Exactly.

[MULEY51]

1990 Kali outlaws taking kitties ......
1990 - present deer populations statewide have dropped 50% ....

Don't know about you guys but I don't believe in coincidences .

I believe in cause and effect .

Yep...last 20 years, 6 MILLION deer killed by cats. I repeat...6 MILLION. It's an unbelievable number. Wonder why the herd is down 50%????

[Raminshooter]

“There has not been a thorough study of the state's mountain lion population in many years, and there are no formal monitoring programs in place. Fish and Game estimates the population at between 4,000 and 6,000 lions, but even this estimate is dated.”

And yet, Randy Morrison, California regional director at the Mule Deer Foundation, a conservation and hunting organization makes this statement:

Morrison, however, doesn't buy the mountain lion argument.
"I believe it's habitat, habitat, habitat," he said. "So far, I don't believe we're turning the tide at all. I'm concerned. Very concerned."
Randy: stop putting your foot in your mouth on a such hot topic as this. If there are no thorough studies on the mountain lion population OR that populations impact on the deer herd in California why would you allow yourself to look so ignorant with the statement you made above? It is an established fact that mountain lions take, on average, a deer a week and if you do the math using 6,000 mountain lions as a population (could be many more) then you still have a significant population impact. I know you are out there doing good work for California hunters all the time but start thinking before talking.

[slanttop357]

When the Deer are gone we will start to look pretty tasty to them :(

[Bossbrott]

When the Deer are gone we will start to look pretty tasty to them :(

And hopefully my math is correct, but approximately 95% of "us" is defined as "democrats"!!!EAT UP

[Vermonster]

Some of you guys are funny. 300,000 deer killed by lions each year?????? You seriously believe that? Out of a population of only 450,000 deer? Impossible. Not every lion kills that exact amount of deer each year. Some focus on rabbits and other game. Heck, there might be lions that never have eaten a deer.

I am not saying this to try and protect lions or anything, cause I actually believe there should be a season on them. However, some of you guys are taking things way to literal, and being overly dramatic. Do they impact the herd? Absolutely. Howeve, do they kill 60-65% of the deer like you guys are throwing out there for numbers? No way. The population would be decimated in just one to two years.

[MULEY51]

Some of you guys are funny. 300,000 deer killed by lions each year?????? You seriously believe that? Out of a population of only 450,000 deer? Impossible. Not every lion kills that exact amount of deer each year. Some focus on rabbits and other game. Heck, there might be lions that never have eaten a deer.

I am not saying this to try and protect lions or anything, cause I actually believe there should be a season on them. However, some of you guys are taking things way to literal, and being overly dramatic. Do they impact the herd? Absolutely. Howeve, do they kill 60-65% of the deer like you guys are throwing out there for numbers? No way. The population would be decimated in just one to two years.

So the DFG and all the experts/scientists are all wrong? Well that's good to know. It's good to know there are kitties that stay away from the deer. So let's cut the number in half....that only makes it 150,000 deer a year feeding the kitties. Or maybe they don't eat deer at all. Wow, now I feel better.

[lewdogg21]

Where I hunt we need another fire to wipe out the invasive brush crap that chokes out everything else which showed up after a fire 18 years ago. The timber companies sprayed it when they planted reprod but it's a nightmare on the forest land.

I'm no biologist but in these areas the availability of deer browse seems limited which of course limits the carrying capacity of the land.

Poaching doesn't help either. Opening day Archery I heard 6 large bore rifle shots in the first 4 hours of the day. :(

[Where's Bruce?]

Anybody else notice that everytime some know-nothing liberal BS "news article" starts getting hammered with facts to prove the article is bogus, they close the comments section? Tell me there's no bias in the media...then sell me the Golden gate Bridge.