View Full Version : Rifleman, or DFG_ Bear I have a question on training dogs on Livestock
01-27-2010, 07:06 PM
Rifleman, DFG_Bear, or anyone else that may know that answer to my questions.
This Question was asked to me, and is in regards to Training or Competitions with working a hog dog in a bay pen on Pigs, Is it legal ?
I'm a dog trainer, so this is my thinking on the subject. My thinking is that Pig dogs like Cattle dogs, and Sheep dogs are working Livestock dogs, and the only way to get a Pig dog to bay, or a cattle, and sheep dog to bay and heard is to work them in a pen on the livestock your desiring to work. Birddogs need to be trained on Birds which is legal, and that inclues shooting birds. I've seen Sheep dog competitions, and Cattle dog competitions, and Pig dog competitions on TV and YouTube. So if someone wanted to build a Bay-up pen and work their dogs on baying up Pigs is there a legal issue, and IF someone wanted to go or have to a Bay-Up Pig Dog Competition on private property would that be legal ? Cowboys have Jack Pot Roping all the time, and can work their livestock in rodeos etc... I dont think there would be a difference in whats allowed when training or working a Livestock dog on the Livestock of your choice whether it be Cows, Sheep, or Pigs. But just curious if you guys or anyone else has any information on the whats legal in regards to training and competitions for Livestock Dogs. I would like to know.
Would DFG have anything to do with them ? With birddog field trials they have to be notified on the when, where etc... but with Birddogs Trials your dealing with DFG Regs on planting birds and shooting training birds out of season, and normally on Public lands etc... With working a Livestock Dog your not dealing with wildlife your using contained Livestock on private property.
Would it be a Code Enforcement issue ? But if you are zoned for the Livestock your using to train your dog on, I dont see a Code Enforcement issue either.
Anyway we do live in Kalifornia so sometimes things that should be common sence, arent, so if anyone has information useful, Please post up. Thanks
01-27-2010, 10:51 PM
There was a bay dog competition in Chowchilla Ca (I5 central valley). I think in 02. There were a few NALC (National Association of Lousiana Catahoulas) bay events in Ione Ca. The same guy put both events on. they were open to the general public and the open bay was an actual santioned event. The guy who put the events on (whos name escapes me) said that the Chowchilla event was succesful and had a great turn out but was the last one he would ever do. He said it was a logistical nightmare. The issue was the hogs themselfs and the liability insurance to have it open to the public. In california wild hogs are not to be possesed alive. Hunting them with dogs and taking them alive or trapping hogs and keeping them alive is not legal. In fact if you go hunting for hogs with dogs, bay a hog and decide to call the dogs off I believe you have commited a crime of harassment. Not 100% sure but I thik thats the case. The guy who had put on the bay competion had to have hogs come from another state. They had to be anoxilated and quaranteened before they were allowed into california. The hogs had to be destroyed at the end of the competition.
The NALC bay competitions were a little different. The hogs that were there looked fairly wild but were in fact farm raised and very domesticated. You would think that wouldnt be a big deal but there was a significant difference between the two events. In the open bay where the hogs were wild the hogs gave the dogs a challange. They charged, ran, spun and provided a true representation of what a good bay dog is capable of. The Nalc event was entirely different. The hogs had been bayed 100's of times before and knew the drill. The dog would go in the arena and the hog would stand there and get barked at until the buzzer went off announcing that the round was over. After, the hog would plop down and take a nap. One time the round had to be stopped and restarted because the hog never got up. He just laid there while the dog attempted to bay it.
If you just want to train a dog to bay a pig in a pen thats not wild I dont believe there is a legal issue to it. Its not the same though.
I once took a prospect dog to a guys house that had a 80'x80' bay pen. There was a 100lb hog and another hog that was roughly 400lbs. I was nervous to put my young prospect in the pen with such a huge hog that had tusks over 4". The guy assured me there would be no problem. I will never forget that day for the rest of my life.
My prospect dog bayed and litterlally chased that 100lb hog in circles around the 400lb boar. My prospect dog payed no attention to the huge boar and acted if it wasnt even there. The guy who owned the place told me that the big boar was completely domesticated and was hand raised from a small piglet. After the practice session was over the guy put the small hog into a holding pen. We then discussed how we thought the dog did. During this the huge boar walked up to the guy, myself and the dog and rolled onto gis back so he could get a belly scratch. My dog acted as if the hog didnt exist. To this day my dogs know the difference between a domesticated hog and a wild hog regardless if its pink with a curly tail or wooly and ridge backed.
01-28-2010, 08:55 PM
California Fish and Game Code defines a wild pig:
4650. Wild pigs, as used in this chapter, means free-roaming pigs
not distinguished by branding, ear marking, or other permanent
Since pigs under the situation as you define above would not be free-roaming, I do not believe they would be subject to Cal Fish and Game laws. I cannot speak for Department of Agriculture or FDA; they may have other rules/regulations regarding domesticated pigs. Maybe try contacting your local rodeo stock contractor. They may know who to talk to.
01-30-2010, 12:43 PM
In fact if you go hunting for hogs with dogs, bay a hog and decide to call the dogs off I believe you have commited a crime of harassment. Not 100% sure but I thik thats the case.
I do not believe this is true for the following reasons:
Fish and Game Code defines what a feral hog is and classifies such as a big game animal. Accordingly, those animals defined as feral hogs fall under authority of the Department and Commission.
Fish and Game regulations identify how harassment is defined. A decision to call off the dogs is not included in this definition.
Fish and Game regulations relating to the hunting of feral hogs or the use of dogs do not obligate that a hog be killed once successfully bayed.
01-30-2010, 02:01 PM
...in regards to Training or Competitions with working a hog dog in a bay pen on Pigs, Is it legal?...if someone wanted to build a Bay-up pen and work their dogs on baying up Pigs is there a legal issue, and IF someone wanted to go or have to a Bay-Up Pig Dog Competition on private property would that be legal?I am no attorney, but I think we should scrutinize two specific concepts: the hog and the activity.
With respect to the hog itself, for reasons that Marc indicated, it is my opinion that hogs falling outside the legal definition of the feral hog would fall outside the jurisdiction of DFG. They do not have direct authority over considerations regarding livestock, as that rests within the Ag Department as governed by the Food and Agricultural Code.
Where you get the hogs would be another matter entirely. There are breeders of domesticated russian boar in and out of California. If you procure it from an auction yard operation, be advised of the requirements stipulated in 10703, 10704, and 10751-10753. If you intend to import hogs in, it would be necessary for you to secure a health certificate guaranteeing their health (Sections 10702 and 10721-10723) and transportation under specific standards (Sections 10724 and 10725).
As to the event, I am unaware of any statute specifically preventing you from using dogs to work hogs. The one Section I am familiar with provides for the ability of a hog's owner to recoup damages should a dog worry, injure, or kill a hog. This obviously does not apply to your situation because the hog would not be harmed and the event would be sanctioned by the owner of the hog. If you account for the various codes requiring permits for crowds, gatherings, etc, I think you would be good to go.
I am by no means an authority on this topic, so I suggest you contact the California Department of Agriculture (http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Contact_Us.html).
02-05-2010, 03:34 PM
One last thing can be taken from the regulations:
251.6. Tagging of Live Domesticated Big Game Mammals.
(a) Domesticated game breeders or other persons holding domesticated big game mammals including nonnative hoofed big game mammals in captivity shall within 30 days after such mammals are acquired, or born, mark each animal with a seal, ear tag or other marking device supplied by the Department of Fish and Game. Alternate methods of marking big game mammals may be used upon approval by the department.
(b) The requirements of this section shall not apply to public zoological gardens, game breeders holding animals on any island in the Santa Barbara Channel area, and to those animals presently in captivity in such cases where the department determines that the capturing and marking or tagging would create a substantial risk to human safety or to the health and safety of the animals.
(c) The seals shall be numerically identified and issued at a cost of 25 cents (25¢) per seal. The seals shall be issued only from the Sacramento office of the Department of Fish and Game.
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