loaded gun

[BigDog]

I am interested in hearing opinions on a subject that seems to have died.
A member recently chided anyone who hunts with a round in the chamber. He says that this is unsafe and that he would not hunt with anyone who does it.
I disagree based on years of hunting and years in the military.
I am interested in hearing other input on this topic.
Thanks.

[hunter mike]

I agree with you Bigdog. ###I have hunted for about 5 years and have been in the military (active and reserve) for over six years. ###I hunt with a round chambered and safety on, with my finger on the trigger GUARD. ###I can take the safety off with my thumb and shoot quickly if needed.

My practice was virtually the same as an Army infantryman. ###I mostly carried a M249 machine gun. ###During battle drills you run, hit the ground, shoot, get up and do the same. ###I always had rounds chambered. ###NEVER have had a problem or accidental discharge. ###Safety is always the priority. ###I believe you must be a competent person, know your equipment and how it functions and use it properly.

I would only hunt with a competent partner. ###Accidents can happen but you greatly reduce your risk if you are aware and pay attention. ###Having a round in the chamber while hunting is only unsafe if the person holding the gun is negligent.

[Fubar]

BigDog ### I hunt when necessary and safe with a round in the chamber. I have my shotgun unloaded on the way to the duck blind. It is loaded when in the duck blind. I have a round in the chamber when hunting quail. How do you hunt quail without a round in the chamber? How do you hunt birds without rounds in your over and under or single shot? Whenever you are not sure of your footing or crossing a fence etc you should unload your gun. Safe gun handling is a must. That is number one. I think if you ALWAYS treat your gun as if it were loaded and use common sense you will have no problems. ### ### ### ### ### ### ### Fubar

[jerry d]

I hunt ducks and pheasants with a shell in the chamber and the last thing I do before the shot is take the safety off.

Like Furbar, my shotgun is unloaded enroute to and from the duck blind. My routine once I get to the blind is to re-arrange the cover around the blind if necessary, hang my swinging seat, get my calls arranged, pour my coffee, then check the barrel for obstructions and load my shotgun.

When we're finished hunting and ready to leave we have a long standing rule in our blind that no one leaves the blind until every one has unloaded and said, "I'm open and empty".

The most important ingredient in firearms safety - muzzle control.

[Speckmisser]

SOunds like nearly unanimous here. ###

When I'm in a place where I might shoot at game, there's a round in my chamber. ###When duck hunting, this means in or around the blind. ###When deer hunting, this means from the time I get into the field (and out of the truck!), to the time I come back into camp. ###

I do remove the round if I meet people in the field who want to "chat". ###Seems like kind of a courtesy thing, since they don't know me and don't know how safe I am. ###I've never seen anyone else do this, though. ###

I have had two very near accidents with loaded weapons. ###Both times, tragedy was averted because the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. ###The most frightening was when I picked up my double as a flock of ducks set over the decoys. ###A reed had stuck through the trigger guard, and I had trapped the bitter end against my palm. ###When I lifted the gun I must have slipped the safety, and the reed pulled both triggers for me. ###My daughter was sitting right beside me, and my dog was to my left side. ###If that gun had been pointing anywhere else... it makes me shudder. ###I can see how accidents happen.

SAFETY FIRST! ###And that most important aspect is make sure your gun never points at anything you don't wanna kill. ###You can't pull a bullet back, once it's gone.

(Edited by Speckmisser at 7:27 am on July 20, 2001)

[QALHNTR]

I'm mostly in the hills after those 'lil birds and I always have my O/U chambered. ###Like others said, if your competent and follow safety rules things will be OK. ###To avoid the missed shot due to the safety on, I always practice my trap, skeet and sporting with my safety ON. ###After pull, I slide the safety off in one easy motion. ###I've done it so much on the range, that it's a completely natural in the field. ###I can honestly say that I haven't blown a shot due to my safety being on. ###My eleven year old doesn't know any other way.

[jerry d]

Spekmisser,

Glad to hear you practice consideration of others. We teach that in our Hunter Ed classes. Only takes a moment and makes both parties more comfortable.

We also hammer hard on the "once it's left the barrel, you have no control over it".

Hopefully we get our message across.

[ghrousseau]

Anyone with opinions on hunting/fishing with sidearms? ###I often carry my s&w 686 357 with me when I am by myself in the mountains. ###I always carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber(which is ok because I have one of the new 7 shots.) ###I know that factory states that the 686 is safe from accidental dicharge in a fall, but I just feel much safer carrying this way. ###Any opinions?

[spectr17]

I keep a round in unless I'm moving through some areas that don't give me a good footing, or when crossing a fence or climbing a treestand. I make sure anyone that has a Marlin 336C or old Rem 700 ADL is unloaded since learning of the problems with the safeties on those models. I have a 336C and just cringe at how lucky I am not to have had an accidental discharge.

I made it through 8 years of military carrying weapons in condition one (bullet up, hammer cocked and safety on) only to almost buy the farm at home one day. I have an older Colt 70 series .45 ACP pistol that I used to carry everywhere and one day I got stupid and carry it loaded into the house with an armload of stuff.

I get in the door and the gun slips and falls and BLAM!!!! Nose down on the tile it goes off and I'm suddenly checking for oil leaks. The 230 grain Black Talon bullet grenaded when it hit the tile and went through my legs to stick in the drywall all around me and the ceiling. My ears were ringing and I had to shakily take a seat to calm myself down to make sure I hadn't commited Hari Kari. One slip of gun safety was all it took.

It still amazes me that I didn't even get a scratch from all the lead and copper that flew around me that day.

Always be aware of what your muzzle covers and demand others follow the same gun safety. There are no do overs in gun shot wounds.

[colby18]

I agree with everyone, that is it is damn near impossible to hunt any kind of birds without a shell in the chaimber. ###I too always keep my safety on and wait until the last possible second to take it off. ###I have missed a couple of shots because I waited to long to take it off but I'd rather miss a shot once every blue moon than loose a hunting partner forever. ###

[grtwythunter]

Spectr- What is the problem with the safety on the 336C? I have a 336RC and have never had or heard of any problems with these guns.When hunting, I carry one in the chamber with the hammer at 1/4 cock. I don't want to jeapordize safety if these guns have a problem. ### ###Scott

[shooter44]

Jesse.

What's the deal with older Rem 700 ADL's? ###The only thing about them I know about is that you have to take the safety off to unload them, as having the safety on locks the bolt. ###Is there something I should know about (I use a 1960 vintage 700 '06)?

[spectr17]

shooter,

There is a problem with the Remington ###M700s for accidental discharges when the safety was being disengaged to open the bolt. After many complaints and some gunsmiths proving the problem existed Remington caved and recalled the rifles. Somehow the safety was firing the rifle. I just did a search and didn't find any recall info but did find a court case about it. There was a ###lot of discussion about it on the hunting forums last year after a TV show about it, 60 Minutes maybe? I'm not sure what years are affected. I posted this question in some gun forums to get bettter sources to list here.

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/digitaldiscov...ation/lewy.html (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/digitaldiscovery/library/spoliation/lewy.html)

GWH,

The Marlin carbines with the half cock safety are notorious for failing when struck by an object. The new 336CS with the cross bolt safety I am told are not much better. Just like on a series 80 Colt ACP that use a firing pin locking metal fork, with enough force applied the firing pin will hit the primer and KaBAM.

Ruger has the transfer bar which has to move into place for the firing pin to work. Much safer.

Where's Gun Docc when I need him? Docc, lay some of that gunsmithing talk on us to make sense of what I just tried to explain, please.

[spectr17]

I found some more info and had some people send me some documetation about the M700 and M600 trigger/safety problems.

Here is Remington's bulletin about it http://www.remington.com/safety/reminder.htm

From JB

All Remington bolt action CF triggers from 1950 beginning with the Model 721 and 722 up through currently produced Model 700s and all the ones except the model 788 that have been made in the last 50 years (M600/660/600Mohawk/M7 etc) have the Walker System trigger which uses a "Flexibly mounted connector" that has been proven many many times to allow the rifles to fire without the trigger being pulled.

There are many deaths and serious injuries that have resulted. ###It makes no difference if the trigger has been adjusted, altered, or maintained. ###The fault is in the basic DESIGN. ###It has to be replaced to fix the problem. ###Any trigger that DOES NOT have the connector is much more safe than the Walker trigger. Timney, Shilen Jewel)

If you want a full engineering report on how the trigger works and how it fails I can get it for you.

This information, while common knowledge to those that analyze customer complaints, has not been released to the public or Remington's own repair stations until now.

I first identified the problem in 1969 when a good friends father in law shot himself in the knee with a 722. ###Its very easy to see and understand if you first know exactly how the trigger is designed to operate.

Sending a gun back to Remington results in another trigger just like the one you had.
====================================

Here is a link to the CBS info.

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,269769-412,00.shtml

I also was e-mailed some documents that show Remington knew of this problem since 1947. I won't post the documents here but I can email them to anyone who wants to look at them. Pretty scary stuff.

[BigDog]

looks like there may be a lot of them on the market soon ###now that you let the cat out of the bag Jesse.

[spectr17]

Bigdog,

A simple trigger replacement is all that is needed. Last trigger I changed cost me $25.00 and $30.00 for labor. I'm not real hip on Remingtons but it may even be a drop in replacement. I still like to have a competent gunsmith go over all my triggers just to be sure.

[Gun Docc]

Spectr17,

just seen this post was growing so figured i might add a few notes.

yes the Remington 700 model guns have been notorious for them going off unexpectedly without pulling the trigger . i have replaced several trigger assembly's to rid the particular gun of this because like you said earlier that if you send it back to remington you will only get it back with a new trigger just like you had.

Remington kept this quiet for years like you noted .

the problem lies in the trigger design itself and it has to do with the safety detent spring and ball having enough slop in them to let the firing pin drop with a slight movement, such as when handling. this connector assembly holds the safety detent ball and when you send it back to remington they claim to have replaced the detent ball and connector to ''supposedly'' alieviate the problem.

i have replaced several but have never really sat down and studied the 700 triggers except for a few that had obvious troubles with them ,such as set to light by the owner or someone else. ###on several occasions i have had to replace the detent ball or the connector plus the small clip that holds the connector on , they seem to be too weak to hold the detent ball in place good.

best thing to do is if you suspect any trouble is to replace the trigger assembly with one such as a timney which is fairly simple as it is a drop in replacement.

i am not an authorized by remington to repair their guns as i do not do a whole lot of just ''broken parts'' replacements.(been there done that)

most all my gunsmithing involves customizing the particular gun. and most of this is with shotguns.

back to the subject of a loaded round while afield ?

yes while hunting ###my gun has a round in the chamber while expecting to see game but i then unload it when the need arises such as crossing fences, climbing in treestands and many others as well.
working on many guns over the last 20 years i take this type of thing Very serious as you never can call that bullet back.
you can never be too safe with guns but mostly a little common sense will go a long way in being safe with a firearm of any kind.
muzzle control and know your target plus whats beyond.
Later,

[BigDog]

I want to thank everyone for their input on this subject. When I read the first post on this subject, it tweaked me a little in being called unsafe. I guess there are a bunch of us "unsafe ones" out here. It appears that most of us agree that it is ok as long as the safety is on when hunting and the chamber is unloaded when crossing fences, meeting people in the woods, traveling in/on a vehicle, common sense things.
Thanks. See you in the field, safely.

[Fubar]

Big Dog you can hunt with me any time. ### ### ### ### ### ### Fubar

[BigDog]

If we get the chance, I would like to take you up on that and get you to break me in on turkeys.