View Full Version : Groups
05-17-2002, 01:17 AM
I was at the range last week and there was a guy next to me shooting a 700 Rem tactical with a Schmidt & Bender scope I was watching him as he was being this meticulous PA, clean after every shot with all the high dollar cleaning stuff, one of the $250 rifle rests that you move the gun with a dial I could not help but look at his target.
He had a BR target with the 8 bulls on it, he fired 6-shots at each one and when he pulled the target he remarked to me man I got several .025 groups what he was doing was taking the best 3 shots and saying that was his group and measuring outside of hole to inside thats not the way I do it.
How do you shoot and measure it.
I shoot 5 shots and measure center to center of ALL 5 shots not pick the best 3 shots.
I shoot about 3 times a month at Fish Caynon and check out many of the hunting rifle shooters and 1" is excelent with some shooting 2"-3" groups and many 5"-6" i'm now very skeptical about ###guys saying I shot a 1/4" with most running 1/2", in my life I have only shot 3-4 groups under 1", remember i'm talking hunting rifles with standard rests none of these $200 -$300 gun vices count.
05-17-2002, 03:08 AM
"Officially"? ###I have no idea. ###Personally, my grouping is however many shots I happen to be shooting at one time. ###Whether 3 or 6 or 9. ###I measure from outside to outside and generally find that the more shots I shoot, the wider my grouping. ###I can shoot single-shot groups under 1/4" every single time. ###When I fire that second shot though, my groups tend to widen a bit. ###The targets I shoot have 2.5" bulls and I can generally make it in that 2.5" center every shot. ###That's enough to make me happy.
05-17-2002, 04:46 AM
I dunno the official line, but I measure mine shot groupings as the diameter of a circle that encloses all the holes.
I agree. 5 shots, same target, extreme outside to outside.
When I used to go out to the range outside of Jamul and shoot on a regular basis:
Remington M 700 30-06 150 gr factory loads
I could hold a 2" group (+/-) 1/2" @ 200 yds pretty consistantly.
05-17-2002, 06:53 AM
There are several methods of measuring groups. ###But, as a general rule of thumb here are the pretty much standard ways for doing it:
Shots per Group:
Heavy Barrel -- 5 shot groups
Standard "Sporter" Contour -- 3 shot groups.
General grouping -- Measure from the two farthest apart holes in you group. ###The measurement is your group size.
"Center to Center" grouping -- Measure the same as the "General" method, but subtract the diameter of the caliber shooting (i.e. .308, .224, .172 etc). ###Then you have your "center to center measurement".
Anyone else got a different method/style?
(Edited by MarinePMI at 6:54 am on May 17, 2002)
05-17-2002, 06:59 AM
From what I have heard you measure the diameter of the entire group, outside to outside, then subtract the bullet diameter. ###This is the same as measuring from center to center of the two shots farthest away from eachother. ###On 100yd targets using this method with my hunting rifles I can consistently get 1 inch groups. ###Good enough for me. ###But this brings to mind a realization I had on my last hunt earlier this month. ###We are so obsessed with one inch groups and free floating and glass bedding and all this hype. ###As if this makes us better hunters. ###I have been on many hunts in CA and CO and have met many guides and crusty oldtimer hunters that have taken more animals than I'll ever even see. ###These guys don't shoot fancy tricked out rifles. ###They shoot out of the box Remingtons, Winchesters and Rugers. ###Ask what kind of groups they shoot and they will look at you funny. ###They sight their rifles in until they can hit a beer can at 150 paces. ###You may outshoot them on a bench but in the field they know exactly where there rifle is shooting and can confidently, consistently and calmly part the wings on a fly's back. ###When it comes down to it if we took the time and effort we spend to get our groups from 1 1/2" to 1" and applied that to field practice, we'd all be better shooters. ###Oh' and by the way ask them what kind of bullets they shoot. ###You'll find its not some fancy, expensive Barnes X or Failsafe. ###They shoot Remington Core-loct. ###Why? ###Because you can buy them at the local hardware store and they put meat in the freezer year after year. ###I think the gun mags have really got a hold of us and we could do ourselves a lot of good but just getting back to basics. ###My 2 pennies.
05-17-2002, 08:27 AM
I like what you said, and I've been considering it for a little while too. ###I started a longer response, but thought it would be better as a new topic, since it kinda gets away from what these guys are talking about. ###
Bottom line, though. ###I agree that there are a lot of hunters out there way too concerned about minute of angle, when all you really need for success on big game is 6 to 8 inches at the farthest range you'll be shooting. ###The trick then, is not to shoot past that limit... whether it's 50 yards or 500.
Theory is overcoming practice. ###
05-17-2002, 04:39 PM
###I've Always had the understanding that its center to center,but when i shoot i measure outside to outside of holes that are the farthest apart,But for the most part i dont measure,i put up a target,i shoot,i let barrel cool,shoot agian,i do this for 5 shots then look,if i could lay a silver dollar down on the target and cover the holes im tickled to death,if i could do the same with a quarter there must be a mistake there somewhere because i cannot steady myself that well.
###I dont worry to much as long as my bullets are inside a 1" to 1 1/2"group at 100 yards,very few shots any farther than that where i hunt,most of my shooting at deer or other game is under 75 yrds.
###But as a reloader i always try to make a load as accurate as I can,thats 50% of the fun,the other 50% is cost and knowing i loaded it myself.
###1/4" at 100 yrds?heck most bullet holes are that size alone.
05-17-2002, 10:57 PM
Well said, never shoot past you own personal limits, and shoot enough to know what they are.
05-20-2002, 12:48 PM
The more you shoot, the better you are.
Now does anyone need to ask why it's a good idea to hunt coyotes in the off season?
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