My new babies

[mudroller]

http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/10_puppies.JPG:bthday:

[Qbn Hunter]

Congrats. You must be a proud father. I'll smoke a cigar in your honor.

[lintongb]

Congrats,
Great looking dog and pups. ###Cute little things. ###I am going to pick up my GSP pup next weekend. ###I am pretty excited about it.

[Terrierman]

Congrats! I just had a litter of pups as well.....7 patterdale terriers. not very flashy compared to your babys!
http://www.sportingcollars.com/images/litter.jpg








(Edited by Terrierman at 4:28 am on May 7, 2002)

[Mt Goat]

mudroller

Congat's on the puppys ### ### ###:toast-yellow:

If you dont mind me asking who was the sire ? and what does the pups pedigree look like ?

[Mt Goat]

Terrierman

Congat's to you on your puppys too ### ### ### ### ###:toast-yellow:

[mudroller]

MT GOAT----Sire is AFC/FC Shadow of Shilo, his pedigree may have some names you may have heard of, ANFC/NFC Beier's Evolution, NFC/DC/AFC Ehrlicher Abe, FC Aces Prima Banane, FC Teton's Ace Von Shilo, ANFC Shilo Von Hessenwald, NFC Blick Von Shinback, NFC ###Mark's One spot, FC Blick's Sierra Hiedi, NFC Ammertal's Lancer D, ........ it just keeps going! My bitches pedigree is the same kind of who's who in GSP's , FC/AFC Big Oaks Snap-e-Tom, FC CAPPY II, FC DIXIELANDS RUSTY, FC/AFC Big Oaks Irish Mist, Big Oaks Bitsha, FC/AFC Radbach's Sabation V. Greif, FC Wildfire's Windjammer, AFC/FC Windjammers Pride, FC Checkmate's DUDE BIgfoot, DC Tip Top Timber, FC Tip Top Timmy, DC Moesgaards DEE JAY, NAFC Moesgaards Coco, NAFC Moesgaards Angel.... There is a about 12 HALL OF FAME dogs on their pedigrees that I can see, only going back 5 generations, and about 70 champion titles that I can count. I take no credit for lining all that up, I lucked out and fell into a great female, bought a book called The New complete German Shorthaired Pointer, saw how great of breeding my bitch had and went looking for another comparable stud to breed to and found Shadow. I don't field trial, I was looking for an excellent pointer to hunt over and that's what I got. I had to continue the line Greg Anderson (the guy I got Dakota from) started. I am looking forward to breeding her several more times in her lifetime.

[mudroller]

Terrierman-they are beautiful!!!! Those dogs can run like the wind. ###A lady at the dog park has a 2 year old and it runs circles around everything except a Jack Russell male! Puppies are a lot more work than I imagined.

[Mt Goat]

mudroller

Yes I've heard of alot of these dogs my dogs have alot of the same blood. I have a very tighty linebred Ammertals D bitch, I also have a dog out of a Cathy Black bitch ( shes the one who did the breeding of Aces Prima Banane and Biers Evolution. Both these dog have outstanding natural ability, as I'm sure your breeding will too.

A friend of mine is going to Greg Andersons today to get his new pup out of Shadow of Shilo and Gregs bitch Sammy (a full sister to Double C's CC CHAZ-A-MA-TAZ and daughter to Snap-e-Tom)

Your breeding sounds GREAT it should produce outstanding HUNTING dogs and/or field trial prospects.

[mudroller]

our dogs are cousins!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mt Goat]

mudroller

I'm just assuming your bitch is out of Snap-e-Tom ??? who is her mom ???

[mudroller]

she is out of Windjammer's Rock-n-Roll

[Rick]

Great lines. ###The best dog I ever had was a Blick von Shinback granddaughter. ### Her name was Ollie ###(Zeigenfeld's Auliya JVJ Cando, to be precise.) ###Coincidentally, I lived in Fairfield at the time and was heavily involved in NAVHDA. ###She used to "bring" me Tule Elk when I hunted Grizzly Island with her. ###I bred her with a dog from a fellow NAVHDA member, Tom Hampton from Oroville. ###His dog was Hampton's Luger, a Moesgaard line. ###Every pup we produced that was tested scored very highly on NAVHDA's Natural Ability Test.

Congratulations on some great pups! ###(Terrierman, too, although I've never heard of that breed.)

[Terrierman]

thanks, Patterdales aren't breed to be fast, just small enough to fit and deadgame enough not to quit. ###These here will grow up to be used on drawing Badgers,Fox etc....

[d trees]

Great Looking pups guys congrats:toast-yellow:,d

[Terrierman]

so is "Shadow of Shilo" a popular producer of your dogs?

[Mt Goat]

I dont know if Shadow of shilo is a popular stud dog. I know a couple of people who have used him and were happy with what they got. He is a field trial dog and does have his FC/AFC. He is a line bred dog from the Greif line. This line has ALOT of natural ability GREAT for hunting and will throw a good trial dog now and again. ALOT of the field trial people have GOOD luck with crosses of these dogs. I'm planning to breed my line bred Greif bitch next year sometime and Shadow of Shilo is one of three dogs I'm looking at. Most Greif dogs love the water, love to retrieve, and point and back naturally, they also have GREAT noses.

[mudroller]

sorry, my 'puter crashed and had to by a new one..... Shadow is a good allaround GSP with a great pedigree, he is just pretty dark colored for most guys, and his pups are showing it, 5 males are developing heavy ticking, the other 5 pups (3 females,2 males) are holding their whiter coat more. It just makes it easier to see them in the brush as they fly by. LAter this week I will post a new updated photo. They are opening their eyes today!

[Jon Bain]

Congratulations on the pups to both of you. ###I got all excited seeing the little ones. ###

I do have a question for mudroller, about your bitch. ###Is her tail not docked and if so is this something new or common now? ###I do not know because I have not followed the breed standards in a few years. ###It may just be the way the picture looks. ###Another question is based on the pedigree with all the Field Champions and such, does she make a good foot hunter’s dog or does she exhibit all the long rang vigor of field trial dogs?

Just wondering because my dog’s mother is field trial stock with a many champions in the pedigree but my dog’s father was a foot hunter’s dog that had no champions show up until the fifth generation back. ###With the combination of the two I wasn’t sure what I would get but I wanted a dog I could follow on foot. ###The reason for the combination was I needed to know there was some proven ability in the blood line, but wanted him to range a little closer than the common field trial dogs do. ###He took after his mother and has a big range, but over time and working with him, being careful to not hurt his desire to hunt, he has shortened that somewhat. ###Now he tends to stays within the three hundred yard range. ###I’m not complaining at all; I was just wondering how it has worked out for you with a dog having a pedigree such as what you mentioned and hunting with her.


(Edited by Jon Bain at 6:11 pm on May 26, 2002)

[mudroller]

Her tail is docked, but it is a little longer than 50% length. I am seeing more and more shorthairs with longer docked tails. I think it is a regional thing(California). I had my puppies tails cut in half, but the breed standard is 40% to 50% remaining, depending on which book you read.
### As to the range she hunts at, it depends on the terrain. Out in the rice fields, she flys so fast and far I had to put a beeper collar on her to keep up with the points(I hunt on foot and I'm out of shape). 200 yards is common for her to work, basically from one rice check to the other. I do have to hustle a little to get up on the pheasants. But in tighter cover, she stays within comfortable walking range. I was originally concerned about it too, but my concerns were unfounded. I think she adjust to me. The best thing I bought for training was a Dogtra500NCP collar. I taught her to come with the pager function of that collar, so if she does range to far, I can rein her back in. I trained her with a whistle too, so I can use either. If your dog ranges too ###far try changing the area you are hunting for a while, it just may be too wide open, or carry a few live quail from a club in your vest, and when the dog splits for parts unknown, plant that bird in some cover right in front of you without the dog seeing it. Call her back and she will lock up on point. After 3 or 4 times your dog will figure out the birds are where you are, not over the next mountain.

[Jon Bain]

I thought the standard for the GSP tail docking was 1/3 the over all length. ###Meaning 1/3 is left and 2/3 is removed. ###I got this first from Charles Fergus’ book, Gun Dog Breeds: A guide to Spaniels, Retrievers, and Pointing Dogs. ###Fergus states, “The tail is docked back to about a third of its natural length.” ###It is also listed in James B. Spencer’s book, POINT! Training The All-Seasons Birddog and in it he states the same thing as Fergus on the tail docking. ###It is also listed the same in Diane McCarty’s book, German Shorthaired Pointers. ###These are the only three references I have, but I know these are not the official breed standards. ###I am not sure where someone gets these unless it is from the American Kennel Club. ###So, are you telling me the standard is listed as 40% to 50% the original length? ###It isn’t that big of a deal and I have seen many a GSP with about half its tail remaining. ###I just thought the standard was a little shorter than 50% based on what I have read. ###I’ll post a picture of my dog so you can see why I am questioning it. ###Like I said it is not that big of a deal, I am just curious what the standard actually states. ###Let me know.

As for range, my dog does shorten up in smaller areas, but let him out on a 200 acre field and he’ll stretch on out there a ways. ###I would love a consistent 200 yards or less being a foot hunter. ###I think because I have used pen-raised birds in his training and me knowing where the birds are I have been able to shorten him up some. ###Like you stated, he seems to figure out that the birds are where I am. ###Don’t get me wrong though, I know when hunting wild birds he knows how to hit the likely spots. ###Problem with that is when the locks up some two or three hundred yards out. ###It takes me a while to get to him and I am hoping all the way the birds don’t flush wild. ###He is staunch so I don’t worry about him breaking point. ###I would not know what he’d do with a running pheasant. ###I did start using a bell this past season. ###It made a world of difference. ###My dog is hard to see in the brush so the bell helps out a lot. ###

Do me a favor if you get the chance. ###Post some more pictures of the pups and your dog. ###I love seeing these little guys. ###And let me know about that tail standard. ###Thanks.

http://home.mindspring.com/~cervus-venator/_uimages/Prowler7.jpg

(Edited by Jon Bain at 6:22 pm on May 27, 2002)

[mudroller]

"The tail is set high and firm, and must be docked, leaving approximately 40% of its length. The tail hangs down when the dog is quiet and is held horizontally when he is walking. The tail must never be curved over the back toward the head when the dog is moving. A tail curved or bent toward the head is to be severely penalized."(from AKC website) I think the key here is the word "approximately". When I went looking for GSP puppies, I was under the understanding the tail was to be 4"+/- . I found NO dogs with tails that short. I then saw all these dogs: ###http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5478/blily.jpg
http://www.psnw.com/~bogansdandy/description.htm
http://www.shorthairs.net/chapter.html ###( I copied and pasted the following from shorthair.net)
"Germany (F.C.I.): "Set high, starting strong then growing gradually thinner, of medium length, but docked to about half to avoid injury. When the dog is at rest, the tail should hang down; when moving slowly, it should be carried horizontally, not too high over the back nor markedly bent; when quartering, the tail should move actively.
DEFECTS PRECLUDING A HIGHER CONFORMATION RATING THAN "VERY GOOD": Tail carried too high over the back, or very bent."

U.S.A.: "Is set high and firm and must be docked, leaving 40% of length. The tail hangs down when the dog is quiet, is held horizontally when he is walking. The tail must never be curved over the back toward the head when the dog is moving.
SERIOUS FAULTS: A tail curved or bent toward the head is to be severely penalised."

Britain: "Starts high and thick growing gradually thinner, customarily docked to medium length by two fifths to half its length. When quiet, tail carried down, when moving, horizontally; never held high over the back or bent."

AUTHOR’S COMMENTS: There are two areas in which the standards disagree. The most obvious one is length. 40% (as in the US Standard) is quite distinctly shorter than 50%, which is the maximum which should be removed, according to the British Standard (and is the desired length mentioned in the German Standard).

There has in the past been some confusion in regard to the British Standard, with some British breeders removing three fifths (60%) instead of leaving that amount, and hence ending up with "American" tails. As matter of fact, it appears that US breeders, perhaps influenced by Germany, are leaving longer tails than in the past, to the point that it is no longer possible to identify an American-bred dog by its shorter tail.

I for one, would far rather see a GSP with a tail to long than too short. When a dog is on point, its rigidly held tail is an essential part of the picture. A short stumpy tail cannot provide the same effect as that of a longer thinner one. More things can go wrong with a long tail of course (a shortened tail may well have removed a kink or a bend). A longer tail, however, not only enhances a point, but can assist in locating a dog working in heavy cover (the tailtip in ticked dogs is often white), and acts as a rudder for both a swimming and a galloping dog.

Germans abhor a thick tail in a GSP, and will trip off any long hairs, even on a field dog’s tail, to achieve the desired look. Although their standard includes the words "starts strong" this should never be taken to mean thick. The US standard fails to mention the thickness of the tail, and although the British standard includes the phrase "starts high and thick", the thickness should only apply to the base of the tail and not extend along its length.

In both Germany and Britain, the ideal tail carriage on a pointing dog is that which forms a continuous line with the back, i.e. head, neck, body and tail held rigidly in an unbroken line (see KS Cara v. Hohenfeld, Fig.. 6.16e, Dunpender Eva, Fig.9.2d). In the USA, however, many field aficionados train their pointing dogs to point with tails held vertically, a feature at odds with the American GSP Standard. Fig. 6.8 provides an admirable example of the contrast in styles amongst dogs of related breeding.

All three Standards penalise an upright, forward-curving houndlike tail. Both British and American standards mention horizontal tail carriage when the dog is moving. The US standard is more specific, however and describes that movement as "walking." Most judges and fanciers prefer to see a dog carry its tail slightly above the horizontal when moving at the trot. Such tail carriage is an indication of good temperament, although some dogs with excellent temperaments are heartily bored by dog shows, and express their feelings on the matter by carrying their tails in a half-hearted manner. No GSP should carry its tail between its legs.

Slightly high tail carriage can be forgiven, particularly in a male being shown with other males, provided the angle at which the tail is carried is no greater than 45 degrees above the horizontal."

### ###I looked at all the dogs in the book "the new complete German Shorthaired Pointer" and I noticed all the tails were longer than 4". He even says that it is better to err on the long side than the short side. My bitches tail is about 60% left on or about 10 ". Her tail only looks about 3" longer than your dog. Your dog sure has a manly head and stance. You can tell he is all boy without having to check the plumbing!!!!!!

http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/madison_and_puppies0001.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/madison_and_puppies0002.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/madison_and_puppies0003.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/madison_and_puppies0004.jpg

[mudroller]

Here's the link to the bigger size pic

http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/puppies102.jpg

[Jon Bain]

A lot of good information and I think you are right in that the word “about” is the key here. ###1/3 comes out to 33% as opposed to the 40% common in the American standard. ###If working with 12 inches 33% comes to 4 inches and 40% comes to 4.8 inches. ###This isn’t even a full inch difference. ###Working with 16 inches the difference between 33% and 40% comes to about an inch with the 33% being 5.3 inches and the 40% being 6.4 inches. ###Being that I do not know how long a GSP’s tail normally will grow, I do not think this is much of a difference. ###I’m thinking that with your dog having 60% at 10 inches the tail would have been right around 16 inches. ###I have seen GSP’s with way too much taken off leaving only 2 ½ ###to 3 inches and this was very unbecoming to me. ###I am also not used to the longer tails (more than 50%) being that most all the dogs I’ve been around at the trials and in the field seemed to have the 33% to 40% range. ###I have seen several 50% cropped tails and in my ignorance thought they were outside the standard. ###I never even know there were differences between Germany, GB, and American. ###I do not know what my dogs tail length is, but I’ll put a tape on him when I get home to see. ###It will be a difficult task in that the nub goes 90 mph when ever I walk out the door and all he wants to do is play ball.

I did see in the info you provided that the trend in America is moving towards the longer tails just as you stated earlier. ###

Loved the pictures. ###Kids and pups go together. ###What does the Chessie think of all the little one running around?

[mudroller]

The chessie jumps in and feeds the puppies. She has developed milk too. CRAZY DOG!!!

[Terrierman]

Your pups are looking awesome! Serious Lookers with the ped to match! Mine are doing great as well,their natural instincts are incredible, I had them working over Possum hide before they knew how to run or drink water out of a bowl!
http://www.sportingcollars.com/images/pup50.jpg
http://www.sportingcollars.com/images/pup51.jpg
http://www.sportingcollars.com/images/pup53.jpg



(Edited by Terrierman at 3:45 am on June 1, 2002)

[Jon Bain]

I love it!! I don't know what it is about pups that makes me feel like a little kid, but just looking at the pictures really makes me laugh. ###

Good work on the Terriers' pre training. ###They'll make fine hunting dogs. ###JB

[Terrierman]

Thanks JB, they are getting to be a serious bunch! I'm really digging the Short Hair Puppy pics, they are incredible looking! I need more land!

[mudroller]

http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/fertilize_the_lawn.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/beat_up_your_brother.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/My_Pictures.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/smell_more_flowers.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/smell_the_flowers.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/troutnut/wink_at_cute_girls.jpg

[d trees]

Man you guys made my Day.
Mudroller nice looking Chessie you got there.

[lcplnunn]

Those are some beautiful pups. ###If you dont mind me asking, how much do you plan on selling them for? ###My brother got a german short hair, and now im looking for a good hunting dog. ###Im really intrested. ###If you want you can email me at devildogjn@hotmail.com